The Problem of Evil - 250107

SPEAKER A Hello. Welcome to Let God Speak. I am your host, Uriah St Juste. Theodicy is a subject that is concerned with the question, how can God be just when evil is present in the world? It is not about justifying evil as evil can never be justified. It is about justifying God because let's face it, the one who is under the microscope when bad things happen is God. When we ask the question, why did he allow this to happen? Today we will explore these difficult issues from God's Word, the Bible, as we study the problem of evil on Let God Speak. On our panel today, we have Kaysie Vokurka and Junior Sulusi. Welcome, Kaysie and Junior. SPEAKER B Thank you. SPEAKER A Raya. Please join us as we pray. Dear God, we thank you for this wonderful privilege that we have to study your word, Lord, as we open the Bible, we pray that truth may shine through and we ask for your holy Spirit to be with us. May today's study bring comfort and hope to our viewing audience and may we be blessed by spending time with you. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. SPEAKER B Amen. SPEAKER A C.S. lewis was a prolific Christian apologist who was once an atheist. In his book the Problem of Pain, Lewis defends the existence of God by first showing the difficulty in accepting his existence. If God is good, he argues, then he would wish for all his creatures to be happy. If he were all powerful, then he would be able to do as he wished. The fact that his creatures are not happy, it means that either God is not good or powerful or both. In the book, it shows how he came to an understanding of God and the nature of man, which led to an understanding of how God solves the problem of pain. Now, Kaysie, in the news today, not a day goes by if we don't have bad news in the news. We have violent crime, we have political upheaval, we have natural disasters. When we turn to the news, does the problem of evil in the world only exist in contemporary societies? SPEAKER C Well, no, it's been there for quite a long time and it's in fact ten generations after humanity existed on this earth. According to the Bible, the problem of evil was very much a big issue. And we can read about that in Genesis 6, verse 5, where it says, then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually, which is very, very pervasive in that description there. And God was very pained to see this. And so, yeah, basically early on, evil existed. It got very bad. And it's been with us ever since. SPEAKER A Thank you. And Junior, when we read the Bible, not everyone in the Bible followed God. They were followers of God. And there were those who followed other gods. But the effects of evil is not excluded from those who followed God. People who worship God also experienced evil. As we read the Bible, how did this affect their relationship and their experience with God? SPEAKER B Yes, Uriah? Well, it creates a lot of confusion in their minds, at least at first. And so if we have a read of Job, chapter 30 and verse 26, it says, When I looked for good, then evil came unto me, and when I waited for light, there came darkness. So Job is here confused and is complaining to God because he has been good to others. You know, a lot of his life has been doing good things. And so yet his reward seems to be evil and, you know, pain and suffering. But if we also have a look at Psalms chapter 10 and verse 1, it reads, why standest thou afar off, O Lord? Why hidest thou thyself in times of trouble? So when trouble comes upon God's children, to them it can appear that God is nowhere to be found. SPEAKER A Now, Cayce, sometimes people who believe in God, they can doubt God or they can feel discouraged when trouble comes. And there might be a lot of guilt associated with this. Is is doubting and feeling discouraged something that is a normal part of the believer's experience? SPEAKER C Yes, I believe that that is true. It's definitely, just definitely a very typical human experience. And we even see Jesus experience the same thing in his big trial. And of course, Jesus is a unique being. He's fully human, but also fully God. And he's an example for us. And it's very interesting in Matthew 27:46, where it's talking about Jesus on the cross, it says that about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying, eli, Eli, lama sabachthani. That is my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? So Jesus felt forsaken, and that's a key thing. It's how he felt. Right? So we can't always rely on our feelings. We can experience them. But if we rely on that, that will lead us down deeper into discouragement. And so Jesus felt discouraged. That's just normal human experience. But both Jesus and also Job, who Junior was reading about earlier, they didn't let their feelings be all pervasive. They pressed on. They didn't let themselves succumb to discouragement. SPEAKER A So feelings are normal. But to act on those feelings is not always the best thing to do. Now, Junior, with all that had been Going on with Job. Job requested an audience with God so God can explain why all these things were happening to him. What can we learn from God's answer to Job? SPEAKER B Yeah, let's have a look at that. Uriah. In Job, chapter 38, verse 1 and 2, it reads, then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? So God says to Job, you speak much, but you know you have little knowledge, right? So this too can be our problem. For us who are experiencing hardship, it is a very real thing. You know, what we need to remember is that there is lots we do not know and understand. The answer is to go to the source of all knowledge and understanding, which is God for strength. SPEAKER A Very good. And Kaysie, let's look at some practical things that we can give to our viewing audience. Many who are viewing may be overwhelmed because they're experiencing adversity or grief or loss. What kind of practical advice can you give to those who are viewing? SPEAKER C Well, it's interesting because psychologists tell us that often our problems can seem worse when we feel that they are. They're personal. They are pervasive and permanent. So it's like three P's there. Personal because you believe it's only happening to you. You're somehow isolated or the only one that this is happening to. Pervasive because you believe it's destroying everything in your life and permanent because you don't. You don't have hope that it will go away. You don't believe it will go away. And I believe Job was in that sort of a situation. And it's very interesting what he said. In job 421 3. It says, then Job answered the Lord and said, I know that you can do everything and that no purpose of yours can be withheld from you. You asked, who is this who hides counsel without knowledge? Therefore, I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. And so in this situation, Job is acknowledging that he doesn't know everything. He doesn't have the full picture, but he's turning to God as one who does know everything and who knows and can do something about everything. So ultimately, he's switching gears from his folk, his own perspective on his situation, to God and trusting God who sees everything as it is. SPEAKER A So he's actually turning to God who does know everything. And I just want to read A verse from 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, and verse 12 that gives us sheds some light on this 1st Corinthians chapter 13 12. The apostle Paul says, for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know, just as I also am known. And here we see that the Bible is saying that we do not always have a perfect view of reality. Sometimes, you know, we are going through an experience and we don't have the full picture. Our reality is obscured and is imperfect. The pain is real. But our understanding could be a bit limited. And we do not always know everything. Junior, can I know everything? SPEAKER B Only God can know everything. God is all powerful, all present and all knowing. Now, if you were to be all knowing, you would be God. We should accept that we cannot know everything. It is a humbling and sobering thought. We all want to know, why don't we? Why did God allow this bad thing to happen? If we could understand, it would make sense, and then we can accept it. But let's have a read of Isaiah, chapter 55, 8, 9, which says, for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. So God does not think like we do, nor does he do things like we do. We can surrender to his way rather than trying to understand. SPEAKER A And that's the challenge. We always want to understand. And we think that if we can understand, then somehow it will be better. And interestingly, Jesus on the cross, in the verse that you read earlier, Cayce, he asked the same question. Why? He wanted to know why was this happening? So it shows us that Jesus is human and we can identify with the same struggle of wanting to know and to understand why. Now, Junior, you know, you've said in your answer that we can surrender to God when we don't understand. This is not always easy to do. I think of hospitals around the world where there are paediatric oncology wards. That's children that are suffering with cancer. And I can imagine parents praying for their children to get better. And sometimes the children don't get better and they die. What words of hope can we give to a parent in that kind of situation? SPEAKER B And this is God's promise to these parents. We find this In Jeremiah chapter 29 and verse 11, it reads, For I know the thoughts I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you an expected end. So while we may not understand it all, what we do understand here, Uriah, is God's intentions to Us are always good and not evil. SPEAKER A That's a wonderful promise that even if it may not work out the way we would like it to be, in a very horrible way, God's will to us is always good and peace. And I just want to share another verse From Romans, chapter 8, verse 28 this time, and it says, and we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his promise. Now, this verse does not say all things are good, because some things are just really horrible. They are not good. But it says that all things work together ultimately for good and for God's glory. And this is why I love this verse. It is heartbreaking when parents have to lose a child, a baby, through cancer, and that's definitely not good. But God can turn the tragedy into triumph, and we may not see it on this side of heaven, but we can trust Him. Kaysie In Psalm 73, the Psalmist introduces us to another dimension of the problem of evil. What is that dimension? SPEAKER C Yeah, well, let's have a look in there. Obviously, we have seen that God does allow evil, and we've seen that even good people can have evil befall them. And so it's very interesting because this chapter is about that. So Psalm 73:1 3 says, Truly God is good to Israel to such as are pure in heart. But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled, my steps had nearly slipped, for I was envious of the boastful when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. And so obviously this is saying that God can allow the wicked to prosper at times, even though we may not think they deserve that. But then if we have a look in verse five, it says, they are not in trouble, as are as other men, nor are they plagued like other men. And this can be quite a challenging thing for people because, you know, godly people who are suffering, if they look to people who are wicked and they are not, and they're prospering, it can seem very unfair. And in the case of the psalmist, he felt so discouraged, he nearly gave up on God. So it's a real, it can be a very trying experience to witness this in our lives. SPEAKER A And the psalmist almost gave up, he said, and obviously he didn't, what made the difference? Why didn't he give up? SPEAKER C Yeah, well, this chapter is his testimony. And later in that Psalm, in verse 15 and 16, it says, if I had said thus, sorry, 16 and 17, when I had thought how to understand this, it was too painful for me until I went into the sanctuary of God, then I understood their end. So when he went into the sanctuary, which in those days was the place of worship, and it was where he saw the plan of salvation and where he could, by faith, see Christ and what he would do, that's when he got a perspective shift. And the story of redemption tells us that evil is going to be ended by Jesus. And it also tells us that at the end, Jesus is going to bring judgement and make all the evil right. He will address everything. So all the injustice that we face is going to be addressed. And this can give us great hope when there's no hope for that that we see in this society. SPEAKER A Praise the Lord. And, you know, I think sometimes the solution to, you know, when we're going through hard times is to go into God's house and worship. You know, if we keep our eyes on the problems around us, we can go into despair, we can go into depression. But when we change our focus like the psalmist does, and we go into his house and we worship him, we can get a different perspective. Now, Junior, we've been discussing evil in this world. Is God in any way responsible for the evil that exists? SPEAKER B And, you know, we must go to the beginning of beginnings. Uriah. Genesis, chapter one, verse one. It reads, in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. So the Bible declares God as the creator of the universe, including this world and all that is in it. Yes. And when we look at verse 31 of the very same chapter, it says, and God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. So at the end of the creation story, we see that when God created this world, it was perfect or very good without any evil. So God did not create the world as we know it with evil, pain and suffering or suffering. SPEAKER A And that tells us, you know, evil in this world, pain and death and sickness, that was never part of God's plan. He didn't make it that way. So how did we get to this place of pain and evil and suffering? Kaysie? SPEAKER C Well, it comes down to one key point, and that's found in Genesis 2, verse 15 and 16, 16 and 17. I did the same thing. It says, and the Lord God commanded the man, saying, of every tree of the garden, you may freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. For in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. So basically, these verses are saying that God gave man a choice whether they would obey him or not. And the choice to not obey God opened the way for evil to enter this world. SPEAKER A That's very good. So God made man with the ability to choose free. Freedom of choice, as we say. So, Junior, why then would God create humans with the ability to disobey Him? Why didn't he simply remove that possibility and completely block off the possibility of evil coming into this world at all? SPEAKER B Interesting. Let's listen to what C.S. lewis wrote here. And I quote, free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. He goes on to say, a world of automata, of creatures that worked like machines, would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for his higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to him and to each other. So God could have chosen to use his power to make man, in a way, to have no choice but to obey him. But that would not be an act of love, would it? SPEAKER A No, I don't think so. And you know, I once had a friend who argued with me that the fact that God created a system that could fail means that He Himself was a failure. But what that person did not realise was to create a system where there's only one choice, one option that's not very loving. That's God using His power to really abuse us and to control us. And thank God he's not that way. SPEAKER B Amen. SPEAKER A Now, Kaysie, sometimes when natural disasters occur, people often refer them to as acts of God. I'm sure you've probably heard that before. Does God cause natural disasters that kill people in the way that is described? SPEAKER C Well, a nice way to explain this phenomenon is by having a little look at Matthew, chapter 13. There's a parable in there that Jesus tells, verse 25 and 26, where it says, but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. And this illustration is portraying the reality that while there may be good intention on the part of God, there is also a being that's very powerful in this universe who has evil intentions in God's work. And he will do things that disrupt that. And so whilst God made the world and it was very good, evil came through an enemy. And it's very interesting when we refer back to the story of Job, we get a real insight into some of the activities of the enemy. And in Job, chapter one, verse 10 to 12, we read where Job is talking to God and, sorry, Satan is talking to God about Job. It says, have you not made A hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side. You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse you to your face. And the Lord said to Satan, behold, all that he has is in your power only. Do not lay a hand on his person. And so we see here that obviously, when you know the story of Job, he experienced a lot of tragedy and natural disasters, even natural disasters, but they were caused by Satan because God gave him the permission. And that's where we have to have that bigger picture to understand this. SPEAKER A And it's very sad that when evil happens in this world, God gets blamed. When he didn't create a world of evil, it was never his intention. And evil is from the devil. And it's his plan, the devil's plan to. To blame God and ruin God's reputation. Junior, I want to read a verse to you that causes great difficulty for many people. It's found in Isaiah, chapter 45 and verse 7. God is speaking, and he says, I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create calamity. I, the Lord, do all these things. And in some versions of the Bible, it says, I create evil. Did God create evil as the verse seems to be implying? SPEAKER B Yeah, well, in the Bible we often find that what God permits, it is said that he causes. So if we have a look at Job chapter 1 and verse 12, it reads, and the Lord said unto Satan, behold, all that he has in thy power, only pardon only upon himself put forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord. And in chapter two and verse six, it also reads, and the Lord said unto Satan, behold, he is in thine hand, but save his life. So in both of these instances, Uriah, Satan could do nothing without God's permission. Even when God granted Satan permission, God restricted what Satan could do. The evil we see in this world would be a lot worse if Satan had free reign. God restricts how much damage Satan can do. That tells us that God is ultimately in control and not Satan. SPEAKER A Now, Cayce, God is in control, yet evil still continues in this world. Why is God permitting evil to continue in this world? SPEAKER C Very good question. We get some insight about that in Second Thessalonians, chapter two and verse three, which says, let no one deceive you by any means, for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first. And the man of sin is revealed, the Son of perdition. So the key point is that God needs to let evil play out so that people understand the true nature of it and want nothing to do with it. SPEAKER A Now, our last question, junior what hope do we have that evil will not last forever? SPEAKER B Well, in Revelation, chapter 21, verse 3 and 4, it reads, and I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away. So yeah, you have it there in the Bible for us. Uriah. SPEAKER A It's wonderful that we can close on this good note that God is promising that one day very soon, evil will be no more. The apostle Paul knew what suffering was. He was flogged, stoned, shipwrecked three times. He faced hunger and thirst, cold and darkness in prison. Ultimately, he suffered a martyr's death. He could have had it easy and given up and abandoned his faith to live a life of ease, but he didn't. What motivated him to live such a life? What he wrote in Romans 8:18 gives us a clue. For I consider that the suffering of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. We too can take comfort in this verse that evil will not last forever, but with Jesus our sufferings will not be remembered, and joy and peace will be ours forevermore, as we declare for eternity that God is good. We are glad that you have joined us today on Let God Speak. Remember, all our past programmes plus teacher's notes are available on our website 3abnaustralia.org.au that's the number three and the letters abnaustralia.org.au or you can email us if you wish on [email protected] that again, is the number three in the letters abnaustralia dot org.au thanks for joining us and God bless you. SPEAKER B You have been listening to let God speak, a production of 3ABN Australia television. To catch up on past programmes, please visit 3abnaustralia.org.au. Call us in Australia on 02 4973 3456. Or email [email protected]. we'd love to hear from you.