The Central Issue: Love or Selfishness? - 240202

Hello, and welcome to let God speak. I am your host, Uriah St Juste. The trial of God as it was held on February 25, 1649, in Shamgorod is a fictional play written by Elie Wiesel about God as a defendant in a mock trial conducted by three rabbis, where God is accused of permitting the massacre of his children. In a plot twist, the author of the play claims such a trial did take place in the nazi concentration camp of Auschwitz. Historians, though, questioned the veracity of that claim. Whether there was such a trial or not. There is a cosmic trial of sorts taking place right now, where God's character is called into question and his love tested. Is he truly a loving God or a selfish tyrant? Today we continue our study on the great controversy theme as we examine the central issue, love or selfishness? On let God speak. On our panel today we have Kaysie Vokurka and John Kosmeier. Welcome, Kaysie and John. SPEAKER B Thank you. SPEAKER C Thank you. SPEAKER A Shall we pray, Father? Today as we study this Bible lesson? We pray, Father, that you would come in a very clear way to show us that you are God of love. We pray especially for anyone who may be struggling with whether you love them or not. May your word be clear. Send us your Holy spirit, Father, to be in this study. Thank you for hearing our prayer in Jesus name. SPEAKER C Amen. SPEAKER A Amen. The jewish historian Flavius Josephus gives us this account of the destruction of Jerusalem. While the holy house was on fire, everything was plundered that came into hand, and 10,000 of those that were caught were slain. Nor was there any commiseration of any age or any reverence of gravity, but children and old men and profane persons and priests were all slain in the same manner. Kaysie, does the Bible give us a clue on how God felt when Jerusalem and the people there were being destroyed? SPEAKER B It's interesting. It actually does. And we find that in Luke, chapter 19, and verse 41 to 44. And this is Jesus talking, and he's on his way close to Jerusalem. And it says now, as he drew near, he saw the city and wept over it, saying, if you had known, even you, especially in this, your day, the things that make for your peace, but now they are hidden from your eyes. For days will come upon you, when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you, and close you in on every side and level you and your children within you to the ground. And they will not leave in you 1 st upon another because you did not know the time of. Of your visitation. And so this was like a prophetic thing where Jesus was looking ahead of time to approximately 40 years after this. And he foresaw that this destruction was going to happen. And it says he wept over it. He was distraught in his heart that this is what was going to happen. It just shows how much God felt sad about this occurrence. SPEAKER A And I can't help but notice that Jesus predicted, and Josephus said, even the children were slain. So, John, Jesus was sad, he was heartbroken because of the destruction of the jewish people in AD 70. What does this tell us? Did an all powerful God, he knew what was going to happen? Did he just stand idly by and let it happen? SPEAKER C No, definitely not. Because here in Matthew, chapter 23 and verse 37 and 38, and I'm reading from the new King James version, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets, you notice that we're coming back to that. And stone those who are sent to her. Notice that we're coming back to that. How often I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. And then Jesus said, see, your house is left unto you desolate. And then when you turn to the book of Luke, it explains it even further of what God was doing, because he had sent so many people to warn his people. And here in Luke, chapter 21, verses 20 to 22, but when you shall see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near, here God gave them a warning. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in the midst of her depart. And let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And so they were given a fair warning to escape and to flee. And that is what God was doing. SPEAKER A Wonderful. So God gave them a warning and told them to escape. Kaysie, is there a time in history where that literally happened, where Jerusalem was surrounded by armies? SPEAKER B Absolutely. There was a time, and it was only a few years prior to the actual destruction in AD 70. So in AD 66, when Gaius Cels Gallus was roman governor of Syria, he led a 30,000 man army down to Jerusalem. And they surrounded it and they attacked it for about five or six days and were making a breakthrough to overcome the city. But then suddenly, like, just very impromptu, I guess it seemed he just called off the attack and fled with the whole army. And the jewish rebels who were part of why they went down there, went and chased after them. And the Christians who were in the city at the time recognised this as the sign that Jesus predicted. And they immediately left and fled into the mountains from the city and didn't come back. And so they had all left the city and they escaped. Not one of them was caught. When a few years later, the army returned, and this time it was the end for Jerusalem. SPEAKER A That's absolutely amazing bit of history. So this is not something that we're expecting to happen now. It's something that has already happened very precisely as Jesus predicted. Now, Kaysie, life can sometimes come with its difficulties and its challenges, and it seems that not even christians are immune from bad things happening to them. Can we have hope that God still loves us when bad times come to us? SPEAKER B It's such a very good question, because that's often what people think when bad things happen. Does God really care? Is he really loving or is he a tyrant? This is a big question, but the Bible paints a picture for us that is a little different. And it's very interesting. When we look at Psalm 46, verse one, it says, God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. And that is the key there, that even though trouble is happening, God promises that he will be with us and he will care for us, and he will even help us through times of difficulty and times of trouble, which is quite a different picture to perceiving that God maybe doesn't care if something goes wrong. SPEAKER A Wonderful. Now, I want to read from Hebrews chapter eleven, verse 35 to 38. And it's talking about such a time when christians were persecuted. It says, women received their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, and that they may obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trials of mockings and scourgings. Yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented. And, John, this is talking about God's people who are following Jesus. How do we reconcile this promise that Kaysie just reminded us from the Bible that God is promising that he will be with us, and yet, you know, these followers of God just being tormented and persecuted that way, it makes it. SPEAKER C Very clear that the Bible is not a fake. It's genuine. It tells what really happened, the good with the bad. And so Jesus, he didn't come to say, for example, John the Baptist, he let him be beheaded and go through becoming a martyr for God. But instead of it being a disaster, that turned out to be an amazing example for other christians when they were called upon to suffer persecution that they did it, and that encouraged others to become christians as well. So it's actually the working of the devil in reverse. SPEAKER A That's right. God is able to turn things around. Some people think the Bible is just a fairy tale, but it paints those raw pictures. They all live happily ever after in the Bible stories. They show that things do go wrong. And now let's look at the New Testament church. The church is growing rapidly. And, Kaysie, there are some challenges that they are facing. What were some of those challenges? SPEAKER B Yeah, it's a good question, because in that time, the christian movement was easily perceived to be a bit of a threat, because the current main religion in that region was obviously the jewish religion. And the jewish leaders were in cooperation with the roman governors to help to make sure that the whole region was, I guess, staying politically under control and that there was no evidence of just rebellions or uprisings coming up. And so the jewish people or the jewish leaders didn't want to have anything that would undermine Judaism, but at the same time, the roman generals didn't want anything to have, like, causing political unrest. And so because of this, they sort of targeted Christianity as something to be persecuted, because it was this movement that was growing so rapidly. And we find in acts chapter eight, verse one to three, an example of this. Saul, who was both a jew and a roman citizen, he caused a lot of persecution for the early church. And it says that in verse three, it says, as for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering into every house, dragging off men and women and committing them to prison. And so it was a risky thing, like it was to be a Christian that day. There was trouble potentially brewing for you. And so that really made, I think, people seek a real deep commitment if they were going to go in this direction. SPEAKER A So the church was being persecuted for preaching the gospel. John, how did they handle that particular challenge? SPEAKER C It was exactly opposite to the way that the devil wanted it. And here in acts chapter eight and verse four, it says it very simply. Therefore, those who were scattered, and in theological terms, that was called the diaspora, they were scattered, and all they did was take the good news about what Christ has done to other places where they would not have gone if there was no persecution. And so the more the Romans tried to kill the church, the more God blessed it, and it grew. SPEAKER A So even in the face of persecution, Kaysie, they still preached the gospel. That would have been something very risky. What motivated the christians to behave that way? SPEAKER B Very good question. It certainly was not something that would happen from selfish motives because of the risk of losing your life. So it had to be by looking away from themselves. And so basically christians drew strength from looking and thinking about Christ. Because he died, he gave his life. Many of them had been witnesses for that. And so that was a key motivator. And then that the spirit that sort of inspired that. When other people then saw christians give their lives, they were inspired with that same spirit. And we find in acts one eight, it says, you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses to me in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth. And so it's the influence of the Holy Spirit in the heart of these people that enabled them to be a witness to the point of giving their life unselfishly. SPEAKER A Very good. So John, let's look at the church today. If the church today wants to stop growing, what is one thing that the early church did that the church today should stop doing if it really wants to stop growing? SPEAKER C Well, let's have a look and see what the early church did. And that was in chapter five and verse 42 and daily in the temple and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ. And then when you go back to acts chapter two and verse 41, then those who gladly received his words were baptised. And that day about 3000 souls were added to the church. And so here, getting together, studying together, being baptised, that's how the church grows. We stop doing those and the gospel will lose its effect and it won't grow. SPEAKER A That is correct. So Kaysie, tell us something else that the early church did very well. SPEAKER B Yeah, absolutely. So in that same chapter, acts 244 through to 46, it says, now all who believed were together and had all things in common and sold their possessions and goods and divided them among all as anyone had need. So continuing daily with one accord in the temple and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart. And then they were praising God. And so they had this wholesome fellowship that they had as part of their lifestyle amongst each other. But they also were very caring and mindful of each other's need. If someone had something that the other didn't, they would share it. And it was just this whole nurturing community that was what was part of their culture. SPEAKER A Now, John, this was the church as Kaysie's describing, you know, having this community within itself. Was that how the church was? Was the church very insular and exclusivist and only caring for itself? SPEAKER C Uriah all around us we see the casualties of the great controversy. There's wars, sickness, broken families, crime, injustice. And Jesus mission on earth was not only to die, but also to help people live in such a way that they were blessed. And he went about doing good, healing the sick and so on. And so when you come to the book of acts, chapter three, after Christ had gone back to heaven one day, Peter was walking down the street. He was one of Christ's disciples. And Peter said, silver and gold I don't have. And here he was looking at this poor man, the beggar man. And he said, I don't have silver or gold to give you, but what I do have, I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. Oh, I wish that would happen to some of us, but it happened back there. And so he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with him walking, leaping and praising God. It's no wonder that when the church looked after people like that, that the church grew, exploded, numerically. SPEAKER A Wonderful. So John, in John's gospel, chapter ten, verse ten, Jesus says that he did not just come, that we might have life, but we might have life more abundantly. What does Jesus mean by this abundant life? SPEAKER C When you think about the things that we need and God provides them, then we have life abundantly. And so the moment you're saved, spiritually, mentally, socially, physically, God wants to restore us right now. SPEAKER A So it's not just when he comes in the future, but right now we benefit from an improved life. SPEAKER C It'll be in the future as well. Yes, but it certainly is present as well right now. SPEAKER A Kaysie, how was the great controversy won? It's a battle, we are told. What weapons does God use to defeat the enemy? SPEAKER B It's a good question. It's certainly not what we would think of, because Jesus won the battle in a most unlikely way. And that was actually by dying. Normally, that is considered to be defeat. But in this war, it's a spiritual war. And so the issues are not what they seem at the surface. They're much deeper. And so we read in Romans five and verse eight, it says, but God demonstrates his own love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And so it's in dying for our sins, he demonstrated a love that was without parallel in the whole universe. And it was this that actually settled the issue of God's character, which was the key point of controversy that Satan has with God. SPEAKER A That's wonderful. So Jesus won, he defeated through love. John, should we fight in the same way as christians? SPEAKER C Well, interestingly enough, the Bible makes it very plain in two corinthians, chapter ten, where Paul says, for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. In other words, they're not the weapons that are normally used in warfare. Christians don't do that. And it was interesting to see, and I want to read this from history, the early church. Father Tertullian, in his treatise apology, in other words, explaining why he wrote certain things. He said this in talking about the christians, see how they, the christians love one another for they themselves. Let's talk about the pagans now hate one another. The christians are ready to die for each other when the pagans, they kill one another. And so there needs to be a huge difference between the way christians act compared to the way people in the rest of the world act. SPEAKER A That's right. And then people take notice. Kaysie, so Tertullian is talking about this idea of christians loving each other. Was that something that he introduced, or does the Bible have anything to say about how we should behave and should we love each other? SPEAKER B That's a very good question. And it wasn't starting with Tartalian. It came all the way back to Jesus teaching. Jesus taught, and we read this in John, chapter 13, he taught something very powerful about love. John 1335. By this, all will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another. And so we see here that this is like a trait whereby we can even recognise who Christ's disciples are, who the followers of Christ are, based on their character, based on how they treat each other. This will give evidence of how much they have love for God, because this will flow out into how they treat others around them. So it's very, very interesting how this came from. And this is like what John was saying before, about how even the historian noticed this difference. Back in those days, there was such a contrast in the way people treated each other. And so it's a big lesson for us today to reflect on, you know, how much, if we're following Christ, how much is it really pervading, how we treat others and those around us? SPEAKER A Very good. So this is the one thing Jesus says that will distinguish us as his followers? SPEAKER B Definitely. SPEAKER A And that might seem a little bit cliche that we should love each other. Now, we saw John earlier, that the early church grew by preaching the word and also serving the community. As the great controversy moves to a climax towards the end of time, and as time changes, should there be more of an emphasis on preaching the word or on serving the community, what people call a social gospel, in order to. SPEAKER C Finish the work that Christ wants us to do, and that is to get people ready for his second coming. We need to go back to what the book of acts says. We're here and we read this verse earlier in verse 46 of acts chapter two where he says, continuing daily with one another in the temple and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness in simplicity of heart, praising God and having found favour with their neighbours who live around them. And so 3000 baptisms didn't just happen somehow, but it actually happened because it was as a result of what Jesus had done for the people. He was the one who had provided food for them, he was the one who preached the gospel to them, he was the one who told them about his coming. And here when you read this, you know that as Peter said, repent, be baptised and the Holy Spirit will come into your life and your whole life will be changed all for the better. And what a blessing it is when we can witness like that to the people around about us. And they know that we're just not serving ourselves, but we're actually doing something very positive that will be of benefit. And as a result, the great controversy to my understanding is very much how much are we as christians willing to do for our neighbours and our friends and our loved ones. And so. SPEAKER A It'S interesting, you know, Peter preached and, you know, 3000 were added to the church in one day. But also in the mid to first century, into the second century, there was an epidemic that spread throughout the roman empire. And it was christians who nursed people back to health. And thousands upon ten thousands and even millions of people joined the church and followed Jesus because of the love that was demonstrated. SPEAKER C So it's not a matter of using one method or another, but it's using all the methods that are most suitable. SPEAKER A That's correct. That's all we have time for, unfortunately, folks. Thank you very much. You may be interested in the outcome of the trial of God we spoke about at the start of today's programme. The trial went on for several days. Witnesses were called, evidence was adduced and a unanimous verdict was delivered. The verdict God was found guilty of crimes against humanity and creation. In another striking plot twist in the play, the rabbis then asked, what shall we do now? The answer came to break the abyss of silence. We pray. And with that, with their faces towards Jerusalem, they prayed together. While all of this may be fictional. There are many who feel this way about God. God's word, the Bible, together with his gracious intervention in the lives of mankind, including mine, is enough for us to conclude that God is love. You too can experience this love. We are glad that you've joined us today on let God speak. Remember, all past programmes plus teachers notes are available on our website, three abnault.org dot au. Or you can email us on 3abnaustralia.org.au. See you next time. SPEAKER B You have been listening to let God speak, a production of 3ABN Australia television. To catch up on past programmes, please visit 3abnaustralia.org.au. Call us in Australia on 02 4973 3456. Or email [email protected]. we'd love to hear from.