Standing for the Truth - 240204

SPEAKER A Hello. I'm Clive Nash. Welcome to let God speak. We've learned from previous episodes that there is a battle going on in the world between good and evil. History tells us that the battle even infects Christianity. Sadly, the christian church is divided today. But history also teaches us that God has always had faithful souls who stayed loyal to him regardless of persecution. Today, our panel will explore the topic of standing for the truth. Well, on our panel today we have Rosemary Malkiewycz and Kaysie Vokurka. Good to have you with us, ladies. SPEAKER B Thank you. SPEAKER A But before we begin our discussion, let's take time to pray. Our wonderful Father in heaven. We just want to thank you for the opportunity to be able to discover the truths of the Bible. And we pray that they will not only inspire us today, but those who are listening and those who are watching, that they might receive a real blessing from our discussion. And we ask this in Jesus name. Amen. SPEAKER C Amen. SPEAKER A Well, first of all, I'd like to read from the last book of the Bible, revelation, chapter two. And I'm going to look at verses eight and ten. Verse eight says, and to the angel of the church in Smyrna. Right. So this is the message to one of the seven churches. And then in verse ten, it goes into some detail. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested. Now, Kaysie, how soon did this prediction of suffering take place as far as Smyrna itself was concerned? SPEAKER B Well, it wasn't too long after. I mean, the book of Revelation was recorded around the end of the first century. And there's a very interesting quote that is coming from the second century, early in the second century AD, from Smyrna. And it's from the dictionary of the christian church. It says about Polycarp. Polycarp was arrested during a public pagan festival and proclaiming that he had served Christ for 86 years. He refused to recant his faith and was burnt to death. And so this was only. It could have been 510. It could have been 15 years later, but not very long, where we've got the case of a Christian in the city of Smyrna who was burnt for his faith. And so you can see that as a fulfilment of this prediction. And, yeah, basically, his crime was for refusing to burn incense to the roman emperor. And in that time, there was a custom in that society that it was expected that you would sacrifice and burn incense to the pagan gods in that time. And if you didn't there was trouble. SPEAKER A So if you were to visit that area now, today, is it still called Smyrna? SPEAKER B No, no, it's actually a modern day Izma in Turkey. It's on the Aegean Sea and it's the third most populous city in Turkey today. But back in the early, like the first century, first and second centuries AD, it was very much a thriving city. But it had a fierce loyalty to Rome. And so paying homage to roman gods and the roman religion was just ingrained in the way that culture was Rome. Of course, we know what Rome did for christians, you know, with the Colosseum and everything. They would kill christians who wouldn't worship and cooperate with the pagan religion. So this was the kind of feel that came into the region. SPEAKER A Something quite alien to our australian culture, isn't it? You know, worshipping the leader of the country? SPEAKER B Yeah, that's true. SPEAKER A As a God. Well, sadly, persecution of christians continued down through the centuries, didn't it, rosemary? SPEAKER C Yes. SPEAKER A And often it was at the hand of even fellow professed christians, particularly in the papal phase of the roman empire. We'll look at some of the biblical principles that guided the martyrs and the faithful. And I'd like you to turn back to the book of Daniel, the prophet Daniel in the Old Testament. And Daniel chapter seven and verse 25 is what we're going to look at. Daniel 725 says, and he shall speak pompous words against the most high, shall persecute the saints of the most high. So here's this idea of persecution coming through, and shall intend to change times and law. And then the saint shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a times. What's happening here, rosemary? SPEAKER C In this verse here, Daniel actually saw in this chapter a vision of different beasts who represented different kingdoms. And this is the. In verse 23, he saw a fourth beast. And in these verses, 23 to 25, this fourth beast, which is Rome, and that is historically documented, the pagan Rome phase is moving into the papal. SPEAKER A They're going from the secular to the religious. SPEAKER C Exactly. And so religious persecution is coming in. It's actually unfortunate that it comes in through the church itself against other christians. And it was the strongest during the period of the mediaeval church from within Christianity, the persecution of other christians who didn't necessarily accept the pagan worship that had come into Christianity. And so if we read revelation twelve six, it says there, then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God that they should feed her there 1260 days, which is the same time period that we've just been reading about. And so we see that Daniel and revelation are actually related. What's in Daniel we'll see expanded in places in revelation. So this time period is the same. What is happening here is the same as what is happening in Daniel seven with papal Rome. SPEAKER A Kaysie, I'm interested in this time element. Can you just expand on that for us? SPEAKER B For sure. Yeah. Bible prophecy, a day is equal to a year. So whereas we mentioned about 1260 days, we would take that as 1260 years. There's a couple of texts that back that up. There's numbers 1434. And there's also Ezekiel four six. And I'll just take the time to read the one in Ezekiel, Ezekiel four six. In the latter half of that verse, it says, you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah, 40 days. I have laid on you a day for each year. Now, the fact that it says it here is one thing, and you might think, well, how do you know that that is exactly true when it comes to prophecy? And, well, the reason we know is because when you apply this principle to many, many of the different prophecies in the Bible, where they give days and you apply it as years, we see over and over that it works. It lines up, and there's just so much consistency there. So that's how we know this principle applies. SPEAKER A Okay, so, rosemary, this time, times and half a time, 1260 days, 42 months, if I understand it correctly, they're all talking about the same time period. Is that right? SPEAKER C They are, because let's look further in. I was just reading before from revelation twelve six. And now I'm going to read revelation 1214. It says, but the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the presence of the serpent. Now, this verse is actually the same as verse six, where it was said 1260 years or days years. And here it calls it a time, times and half a time. It's actually the same situation with the same time period. As a matter of understanding what they mean and verses six to 14, the woman is being protected by God. God speaks of the protection of it against a wily foe. In verse nine, it mentions to us the great serpent and dragon from earlier in the chapter, and it says, called the devil and Satan. So we know that the serpent and the dragon is the devil and Satan, or the same person in the devil and Satan. But it's interesting, too, that serpent of old it says, we know that this is the same serpent that met eve in the Garden of Eden. So THese things are taking us back to the beginning, to the creation. In this chapter, there is a male child. That male child is JEsus Christ. The woman is the pure church of God, and then she is the one who is protected by God and brought into this wilderness where God protects her. And it says that God prepared the place for her. He protects her during this time of persecution, that the church is. The true ChuRch is suffering. SPEAKER A So the time and half a time is one year, two years and half a year. SPEAKER C So that's three and a half years. SPEAKER A And caste, the years were 360 days, not like, you know, 365 for us. So you've got the same period as the 1260 days or years. SPEAKER C And the Christians sought out places of refuge in Europe and in the Americas to get away from persecution at that time. SPEAKER A Yeah. So, Kaysie, do we know what the starting point is for this 1260 years? SPEAKER B Yeah. So it's generally recognised that the year 538 AD was the year that we can start this time period. And I quote from Mark Finley, who is commenting on this history. It says, the Visigoths, the vandals and the Ostrogoths were tribes that believed doctrines differently than Rome's official teaching. The 1260 days began when the last of these barbarian tribes, the Ostrogoths, were driven out of Rome in AD 538. So that was like, a key, pivotal event that gave Rome, I guess, free autonomy in terms of how its power. And then on the opposite end of. SPEAKER A That 1260 period, 538 plus 1260, if my math is correct, we get to 1798. SPEAKER B Correct. SPEAKER C Yeah. SPEAKER B And so it's fascinating because in that particular year, so the exact time frame we're talking about here, Napoleon's general birth year, took the pope captive, and that basically broke the power of the papal Rome system from that time. And it also broke that period of religious persecution that was going on against people who are truly following the Bible in that whole period. So these are like critical endpoints that exactly fit the timeframe that the Bible predicted where this power that was oppressing Christians was broken. SPEAKER A Yeah. And it's actually quite real to me, too, because I have followed in the steps of berthier as he went on that journey to south of France, where the pope died in exile. Let's just step back a little in history, Rosemary, what do we know about the christian group called the Waldenses? SPEAKER C Okay, let's talk about them. I've got some information here on them. It is thought that they may have been named after Peter Waldo of France in the 12th century. There's many different ideas where they got their name from, but they were the Waldenses. They were one of many group who remained faithful to God during the time of persecution. And they were faithful to the doctrines that Jesus and the apostles had, the ones that were in the Bible. They had heavy persecution, they were killed, they were hunted down. Their refuge was in the Alps of southern Italy, northern Italy, the southern Alps in the Piedmont valley area. And that's where they hid away and did their work of spreading the gospel from that place. Their motto was light in darkness. They believed in the sole authority of the Bible, and they disagreed with many of the pagan doctrines that were being promulgated by the established church at that time. And they later joined the reformation movement. But if we go to Jude verse three and four, it's only got one chapter. Jude wrote this before 65 ad. And these words are very important for us all. Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you, exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed who long ago were marked out for this condemnation. Ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into leewardness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. So he's saying there that we have to strive earnestly for our faith in the word of God, the faith once delivered to the saints, because ungodly men were even then creeping into the church, bringing in false doctrine. And that's a warning we all have to heed and be very careful of. SPEAKER A Yeah. Now let's just go back to Smyrna again. And you remember we read in revelation, chapter two and verse ten, do not fear any of those things which you're about to suffer. Now, the interesting thing about Smyrna is that they had a patron God by the name of Dionysius. And the priests of Dionysus, when they had their funeral possession, they were crowned. So, Kaysie, how much better is the reward of the saints here in this church of Smyrna? SPEAKER B Well, it's fascinating, the detail that's included here, because in revelation 210, the last part of that verse, it says, be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life. So these priests who are crowned in their funeral procession, well, I mean, they're dead, so what is it to them? But Christ is offering a crown of life. You know, you get crowned, but you're still going to live and how much better that is for us as christians to have the hope in. So, yeah, I think that is something that the people at this time would have really related to and really prized. SPEAKER A Rosemary, you mentioned about the Waldenses and what they stood for. As I recall, things like, they stood for the truth. They believed in the authority of the Bible and the priesthood of Christ. Did they have a biblical precedent for their resoluteness? SPEAKER C Yes, they certainly did. Jesus had at his ascension to heaven, the apostles were very firm in their knowledge, in their belief in him as their lord and saviour, and in what he had taught them. And in acts, chapter five, verses 28 to 32, we read where the Pharisees had brought them before their tribunal to charge them because they were spreading the. The truth of Jesus. And after they told them to never speak in the name of Jesus again, Peter said, oh, this is what they're saying. Saying, did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine and intend to bring this man's blood on us. And Peter said, and the other apostles, they said, we ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him. God has exalted to his right hand to be prince and saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses to these things. And so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. So that is something we all have to take notice of. We are to be the best citizens any of our countries could ever have if we are believers in Christ. But where the laws of the land transgress the laws of God, we are to obey God rather than man. And that's what the world ends in. And others like them we're doing. SPEAKER A Yeah. Kaysie, do you think it takes courage to stand firm for truth and for Christ? SPEAKER B Definitely. I mean, it can be in very degrees, of course, you know, if you make a little step with no pressure, it may take only a small degree of courage and resoluteness. But even in those things, making a stand is something that's quite powerful. And we find in Ephesians 610 twelve, it talks about putting on the armour of God and putting on the whole armour of God. You might be able to stand against the wiles of the devil because it says, for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers the rulers of the darkness of this age against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. So if you have external pressure from people, yeah. You might feel that it takes courage to stand up for something. But even if there's no external pressure from people, we are made aware that living a christian life, you're actually contending against unseen forces. And so no matter what you do, it takes a degree of courage, really, to be standing for something with that in mind. But Christ equips us for that battle. And that's what this passage is all about. SPEAKER A Rosemary, we know that the Waldenses copied the Bible so they could share this around Europe. And how did they actually do that? SPEAKER C Well, unfortunately, they were doing this before printing press. So we can have Bibles printed very, very quickly en masse, because of the printing ability for printing press. But prior to that, everything had to be done by hand. So up in their Piedmont Valley retreat, they had groups of. Of young people who would sit there relentlessly writing the Bible out by hand. They'd be copying from the Bible and writing it and writing it. And that's the only way that they could do the Bible so that other people could have it. SPEAKER A Yeah. From what you've read, Kaysie, did the Waldenzes have a complete understanding of Bible truth? SPEAKER B It's an interesting question, because when God reveals truth to anyone, there's a principle which he takes into consideration. And we find that principle in proverbs 418. And it says, but the path of the just is like the shining sun that shines ever brighter unto the perfect day. And so if you imagine this is like an analogy of truth and the realisation of truth coming over your mind, just like the sunlight slowly arises in the dawn and gets brighter and brighter. And it's interesting because when you trace the history of the reformation and the knowledge of people such as the Waldenses and other key reformers, you see that there is a real progression in understanding of truth, as the Bible teaches. And God led each group of people just a bit more and a bit more. So any one particular group didn't necessarily have it all. They were on a journey, and then others came in and picked that up and took it further and further because it's given to us as we can handle it, and that's the merciful God that we serve. SPEAKER A I like your analogy about the light of dawn and increasing light. And it makes me think of the 14th century catholic priests. John Wycliffe, he was English, and he believed that the light of scripture should be available to people in their own language, particularly in the english language. But Rosemary, was he ever protestant, really? He was a catholic priest. SPEAKER C After all, he was a catholic priest. He remained a catholic priest. He was a university scholar. But he saw the need for people to have the Bible in their own language. And as he was in England, that's where he would begin. So he and a team wrote the Bible out in English. And he was persecuted for having done so, so much so that God protected him, so that he lived out his life and died naturally. But after, years after he died, his bones were exhumed and burnt and crushed into ashes, and the ashes were scattered into the swift river. And to try to get rid of him, to destroy his influence. The thing is, those ashes went out to the ocean. And in that way, it's kind of symbolic. Yeah. That what he did came across the whole world. SPEAKER A Yeah. So he translated not from the original languages, but he translated from the Latin. SPEAKER C Yes. From the Vulgate. SPEAKER A Second Timothy, chapter two has something interesting to say. Second Timothy, two, one, three. You, therefore, my son Timothy, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. You therefore must endure a hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. Kaysie, what do you gain from this little passage here? SPEAKER B Yeah, well, I think this is saying to us, firstly, that standing for truth involves sharing it. And we see that, like the Waldenses, they were sharing it. And everyone who has heard the truth is sharing it with others. So it takes that. But in that process, there's often experiences that we can go through, which can be difficult. And so the need for courage, we saw that earlier. But this is saying we also need endurance in order to stand for the truth because of what we'll encounter along the way. And Christ encourages us to have that endurance. SPEAKER A Let me just think about another famous character, and that's John Huss or Jan Hus. Depends on how you pronounce it. He was imprisoned in a dungeon, and before his execution as a christian martyr, he wrote something interesting. I write this letter in my prison expecting my sentence of death. Tomorrow, when, with the assistance of Jesus Christ, we shall again meet in the delicious peace of the future life, you will learn how merciful God has shown himself toward me. That's from Melanie White. The great controversy, page 107 and 108. So, Kaysie, over to you again. Do you find inspiration in the courage of men and women of faith, of the past? SPEAKER B Yeah, absolutely. The example that they said of faithfulness to God is truly inspiring. And when you see what they did, it makes you want to dig deeper as to what drove them forward, what pushed them onward. And we can get a glimpse of that in hebrews 1032 to 34, where it talks about just a lot, about how people had suffered many different things, reproaches and trouble with their faith. And then in verse 34, it says, for you had compassion on me in my chains. So the author's chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. And so this is, they were focused on the hope that is promised us in heaven. And this is what gave them courage to continue. SPEAKER A Yeah. And back in verse 23, it says, let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering. Yeah. SPEAKER C So Paul had a very strong faith in God and he didn't let that go, even to be martyred. SPEAKER A Well, time has run away with us again. Kaysie and Rosemary, thank you very much. My guests today have been Rosemary Malkiewycz and Kaysie Vokurka. And I'm Clive Nash. I've had the privilege of visiting many of the places in Europe and the United Kingdom associated with the Protestant Reformation. Each reformer saw some glimpses of truth. The reformers on whose shoulders we stand today did not see all of the light of the Bible. Truth was gradually revealed to them, as one author has expressed it. He led them on step by step, as they could bear it. We can be assured that as we walk in the light, we have more light will come to us, too. We're glad you joined us today on let God speak. If you were blessed by this programme, tell your friends. Remember, all past programmes plus teachers notes are available on our website, three abnaustralia.org dot au. Email us if you wish on lgs threeabnaustralia.org dot au dot. We hope you'll join us again next time. And until then, may God bless you. SPEAKER B You have been listening to let God speak, a production of 3ABN Australia television. To catch up on past programmes, please visit 3abnaustralia.org.au. Call us in Australia on 02 4973 3456. Or email [email protected]. we'd love to hear from.