Living With Each Other - 260112

SPEAKER A Hi, I'm Mike Browning. Welcome to Let God Speak. Achieving harmony with those you know best can be complicated. In our discussion today, we'll examine the best principles to guide our relationships, both at home and in the broader community. The Bible offers timeless principles that can help us navigate these relationships with wisdom and grace. Folks, on our panel today we have Daniel and Kaysie Vokurka, husband and wife team, very appropriate for today's discussion, so thank you for being with us. And we'd like to invite everybody to join us in prayer. Father in heaven, we just thank you for the privilege of praying and of opening the Scripture and reading what you have to say to us. And I pray that your Spirit will guide us today, please, in Jesus' name. Amen. Now, folks, to begin our discussion today, we're going to talk about the relationship between husbands and wives. And Paul begins this with counsel to wives. And I'd like to invite you to look in your Bibles to Colossians 3:18.— and we're dealing with the book of Colossians at the moment, working our way through it. Colossians 3:18 has a message to wives. Wives, submit to your own husbands as is fitting in the Lord. Now, this can be a thorny one. We all get that. What does Paul mean here by submitting to your husband? Does the man call all the shots here? Daniel, you're a husband. SPEAKER B What do you say? Yes, well, it's an interesting question. So there are two questions there. What does submitting mean? And does the husband call all the shots? So there is a leadership role here implied. But it's also interesting that that word there, I hadn't really realized it until I looked at it more recently, that word there for submitting, the first time that word is used is when it talks about Jesus submitting to his parents. And so I thought that was really interesting. And a parental role is one where the parent is caring and so on. So in that context, this is how the word is used. And so the second— and also because it's like a leadership role, a leader is not someone that puts people down. A leader, a true leader, is someone that lifts people up and someone that actually helps. SPEAKER A That's correct, and people want to follow a leader who they know has their best interests at heart, don't they? SPEAKER B That's right. And so the second question, does this mean that the husband calls all the shots? If the husband is of that mindset, it's more of a dictatorial mindset where he thinks, you know, my word is final and all of that. Now I don't think that is what Paul is saying here. SPEAKER A Okay, now thank you for that. That was really good. So do the Scriptures— Kaysie, I'm coming to you here now— do the Scriptures put any limitation on this leadership authority, shall we say, that we've been discussing? SPEAKER C Absolutely, and that's in the second half of the verse. After saying wives submit to your own husbands, it says as is fitting in the Lord. And so that is a clear distinction there that's made because it's saying that the authority is limited to what's within, what's fitting within the Lord, the Lord's will. And so I guess the message here is God and His will is essential to be a priority in the husband-wife relationship. The man's not to be the conscience for his be the conscience for his wife and vice versa as well. You know, the wife isn't to be the conscience for his husband. You know, each of us are to submit to God's authority supremely in our own personal life, but together in the context of a relationship, the wife's submission to husband's loving leadership is kind of like the ideal model. SPEAKER A Okay, so God's will will shape the entire relationship. That's what we're saying. Yeah, thank you for that. So Daniel, is there an overriding principle here in the use of this authority that we've been talking about here? SPEAKER B Absolutely, and that's actually found in the next verse. And it says, this is verse 19, "Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them." And the word that's used there for love is, forgive me if I mispronounce it, it's like agape. And it's a benevolent, sort of an attitude towards the wife. So husbands, be benevolent towards your wives. Be well-meaning. Look out for their best good. Caring and protective. And in that sense, it is safe for the wife to then, I guess, submit to the husband's leadership. SPEAKER A Okay, now thank you for that. You know, I heard this really interesting illustration used by someone I admire, and he described a man's role in this way. He said, "It's like the big friendly sheepdog sitting on a hill watching over his flock." What do you think about that, Cathy? SPEAKER C Yeah, it's an interesting illustration. I mean, it has been said that the father is the houseband of the family, and the model of a sheepdog is definitely a picture of warmth and safety and security. And when you think about how the sheepdog, you know, will guide and protect and defend the flock, this is actually something that I think men often do instinctively for their families. They want to protect them, they want to, you know, make them secure and happy. And I think that a family or even just a couple can really thrive under that kind of care and security. SPEAKER A Okay, thank you for that. I'm going to read here now, I'm talking further about loving husbands loving their wives by the way. This is Ephesians now in Ephesians 5:33, still Paul writing and he says, nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself and let the wife see that she respect her husband. Now what's his main What's his main point here, as you see it? SPEAKER B Well, there is a mutuality here, a reciprocal giving of each other, and this resonates well with married couples today. SPEAKER A Okay, okay, so the husband loves and the wife respects. I think it's a nice combination of thoughts, actually. Yeah, thank you for that. Does this kind of mutuality of love and respect work in in the child-parent relationship. SPEAKER C Kaysie, what do you think about that? Yeah, absolutely it does. I mean, children have a craving to be loved and valued. And I think you often see as parents spend more time with their kids, you know, showing love and care, appreciating them, and just spending quality time, and obviously appropriate discipline where it's needed, that investment into the kids will help them to actually naturally feel secure and loving and respecting towards their parents. So it's like the children will respond to that love with that respect in return. SPEAKER A Okay, thanks for that. Back in Colossians, which is the main study that we're doing tonight— today, rather. Colossians 3:20, children, it says, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord. So is obedience going to be a problem if we use this kind of principle that we've been talking about? Do you see a problem there with that? SPEAKER B Well, I don't think there is a problem there because if the parents are loving towards their children and if the children know that the parents want their best good, then there's no problem with obedience. They will want, they will desire to obey, and I think that is the main aim. And so it's really the responsibility of the parents to show this love and kindness that we have been talking about here. SPEAKER A Yes, and I think the father sets the tone here, doesn't he, for that kind of thing. Look, I'm going to read the next verse now, still Colossians 3:21, and it said, 'Fathers, do not provoke your children lest they become discouraged.' That's an interesting statement. What is Paul's point here, Kaysie? SPEAKER C Yeah, it's an interesting one. Provoking, the word there, kind of, it means like to come alongside and stir up anger inside the person. And so I guess any sort of harsh, overbearing, dictatorial, unreasonable, or even hypocritical approaches can really discourage a child and can crush their spirit. And in turn sort of awaken a resentment or an anger even inside of them that will often lead to rebellion. But when you treat the children with, and govern them with, and discipline them with love and kindness and care so they understand that you really love and care for them, as well as, you know, put some boundaries in place, they can respect that. And yeah, this blending of the kindness and the fairness is really critical here. SPEAKER A Yes, we're always going to make mistakes in our parenting, but if a child knows that the child is loved and cared for and respected, you can get away with a lot of mistakes. I think that's very important. SPEAKER C And I think this even applies in other contexts as well, you know, in schools, the teacher-child relationships as well. Fairness and kindness together, it's really important. SPEAKER A That's so true. Look, I'm going to read now from Matthew 19:14. These are the words of Jesus about children, or what He actually said to them. Verse 14, but Jesus said, let the little children come to me, do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of heaven. What do you make of that, Daniel? SPEAKER B Well, Jesus took notice of little children, and not only did He take notice, but He actually desired for them to come to Him. He loved having them by His side, and He even says, "For such is the kingdom of heaven." And you know, when there's a child that's that simple sort of faith that the child places on their parents and so on, this is kind of like this is the kind of simplicity of faith that God desires for us to place in Him. SPEAKER A Yes. And He actually said becoming like little children was another thing He said for adults to become like little children, to trust as they do. Yes. Thank you for that. I'm going to read an interesting statement that's made in Deuteronomy now, in Deuteronomy chapter 6. I'm going to read verse 6 and 7. And this is what it says. 'And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.' That's good. 'You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you walk—' sorry, 'when you lie down and when you rise up.' So Kaysie, he's saying something interesting to us here. SPEAKER C What is it? Well, in the first verse there, in verse 6, it says that these words shall be in your heart. So, first and foremost, it's important for parents to have that, like God's principles, they need to be their own, like they need to be internalized in their own hearts. They need to love them, yes. And only in that way can they then be exemplified in their own lives. And so, within that context, then they can teach them to their children. And so, I guess it's important here, it's talking about being spiritual positive role models to the children. And helping them to learn right principles just in everyday family life, giving them examples of worship, taking them to church together, you know, and having worship in the home. All of these things are helping them to learn how to make spirituality their own in their own lives. SPEAKER A Yes, thank you for that, and I'm sure that's the great message. Going back to Colossians chapter 3 again, I'm still in verse 22 this time. Colossians 3:22. 22. We're dealing with another thorny issue here, folks, and I'm going to read it for you. And it talks about bondservants or slaves. Obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. Now, Daniel, does it surprise you that the Bible doesn't condemn slavery here? SPEAKER B Well, some people are concerned about that. However, in the Old Testament, slavery was quite different from how we might see it today. And in ancient Israel, 6 years was the maximum term of service to, say, pay off a debt. And also, it's It's interesting here that it says here that Paul is saying obey. So like the servants are to obey, not because they have to, but rather it says in sincerity of heart because they want to. Again, it's that change. SPEAKER A Pleading God, it says. Yeah. If you are trying to please God by what you do. Now that's interesting. So was slavery different when you come to New Testament times? SPEAKER C That was the Old Testament. Well, obviously it was under the Roman, the Roman system, so there were definitely differences compared to the Jewish system, but slaves still did have some rights and some opportunities in those times. However, I think the system was very ingrained, and so it wasn't something that was easily done away with. Society at that time, and even attempting to overturn slavery at that time would probably actually threaten the spread of the gospel. And so for that reason, perhaps it could be one reason why the New Testament doesn't actually explicitly condemn slavery. However, what it does do is instead of focusing on overthrowing the system, Paul is giving advice on how to help Christians live honorably even within less than ideal circumstances. And that is in some ways even a more powerful witness because of the wisdom that's in that. And of course, the time would come when Christianity would oppose slavery later. And we can read in 1 Thessalonians 3 and verse 12, it says, and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to to one another and to all, just as we do to you. And so I guess it's kind of highlighting here that there's to be a growth in understanding and a growth in love for one another. And we know from history that's outside of the Bible that Christians did move against slavery, and that's why it's not as prevalent today as it used to be. SPEAKER A Okay, so with that bit of background— thank you for that, Kaysie— with that bit of background, What guidance does Paul give to slaves now? SPEAKER B Or what additional guidance, actually? Right, and so we can read that in verse 23. And so this is Colossians 3:23: And whatever you do, do it heartily as to the Lord and not to men. And so it's like obey as if you were working for for God himself. And this is good advice for people who are working today in what might be tedious jobs or even jobs that they don't like. Work for the Lord. This gives value to every task no matter what it is. It might be sweeping the floor. It might be taking out the garbage. Do it heartily, you know, do it as if you're doing it for the Lord. SPEAKER A It gives dignity to all labor, doesn't it? We're doing it to God. I think that's a wonderful principle to take into life, actually. Okay, so now, Kaysie, what about slave owners? Now Paul has some advice for them as well. SPEAKER C Yes, he didn't leave anyone out. He had some wisdom for every context. And in Colossians 4:1, it says, Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a master in heaven. And so I guess whether a slave or a slave owner, Paul was wanting to teach and show them how they could each act in their own situation to both give honor to God by their conduct as well as show respect to their fellow men. And yeah, for slave owners, slave masters, having the awareness that they are also under God and, well, they need to submit to Him as well. You know, they are accountable really to God. That is something that would help make them accountable in how they treated their slaves. SPEAKER A [Speaker] Okay, and of course Paul talks about all believers being bond servants of God, doesn't he? It's a great leveler, the gospel, there's no doubt about that. Paul had a message for a Christian slave owner, a specific message, didn't he? And it's found in Philemon, verse 15 and 16, only one chapter there, right in front of Hebrews. And what had happened was that this slave Onesimus had escaped and run away from his master, became a Christian, and now he's going back. And so Paul writes this letter to prepare the way for him. And this is what it says. 15, verse 15: Perhaps he, Onesimus, departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever as a brother, you see, no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. So there's a message there. SPEAKER B What is it? It's an absolutely beautiful message. And so you pointed out that this was a slave who was returning to his master. And so Paul is counseling, you know, okay, he's returning to you. Don't treat him as a slave, but rather treat him him as a brother. And that familial relationship is just beautiful, treating him with love, with respect. SPEAKER A It's difficult to see how slavery could continue with those principles in play, particularly in the Christian church. And it would be interesting to know just what happened. Look, moving on, Paul moves to another subject Ephesians 4:2, and he starts talking about prayer. This is what it says: Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving. SPEAKER C What's the message here, Cathy? Well, I guess it's not just prayer, it's earnest prayer, which means it's not something that's casual, it's something that's deeply from the heart. You're serious about it, you're having a candid talk with God. About your life and what you need, what you care for, and what do you love about God even, you know, all of these things you can pour out to God. And also it's kind of suggesting to be, I guess, it says being vigilant, so being ready to pray at any moment when there's a need or whenever you feel inclined to. And there's a nice comment from E.G. White in Ministry of Healing, page 510. It says, when you are alone, when you are walking, and when you are busy with your daily labor, for help, for light, for strength, for knowledge, let every breath be a prayer. SPEAKER A So it's appropriate to pray anywhere, anytime. Yes, exactly. That's the point. And that's a relationship with God, isn't it? That's a lovely thought, really. Still in chapter 4 of Colossians, verse 2, The last part says, "When you pray, pray with thanksgiving." That's an interesting one. SPEAKER B Yeah, it is. And it actually goes along with a little saying that's, I think, become rather popular: having an attitude of gratitude. Right. Where— and this is actually very beneficial for our health even, to have this positive outlook, this positive attitude. That you're always, you know, that you're thankful. You know, think about things that you can be thankful for. SPEAKER A Yes, thank you for that. Doesn't pay to take life too for granted, does it? Yeah. We're sitting here today. We're obviously in good health and I thank God for that. Okay, so thank you. Still in Colossians chapter 4 now, verse 3. I'm going to read 3 and 4. This is what it says. Meanwhile, praying also for us, 'but God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains.' And he goes on to say, 'That I may make it manifest as I ought to speak.' So what is Paul saying here? SPEAKER C What's his message to us? He is saying a couple of things. The first point in verse 3, 'Meanwhile praying also for us,' highlights that our prayer life is not to We ought not to be self-focused. You know, we ought to think of others and their needs and pray for them. But he goes on to say that he would love for these believers to pray that God would open doors for God's Word and basically the message of the gospel to go to people who don't know it. So those doors could be doors of opportunity in circumstances. It could be doors of opportunity in people's hearts. But he is asking that people would pray that he would have opportunities, more of them, to share the gospel. SPEAKER A Yeah, that's good, that's good. Let me take prayer one step further now, and by talking about not only praying for others but for yourself praying for others, as you pointed out. In Matthew 6:8, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus has this to say about prayer, and he says, therefore do not be like them, for your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. Now that's interesting. So if God knows about what we need to pray for, is it necessary for us to actually ask and put it in words? SPEAKER B What do you think on that one, Daniel? Well, yes. So if we actually go to John chapter 14 and in verse 13, this is Jesus speaking again. And he says, "And whatever you ask in my name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." And verse 14, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." And he's saying, "Ask." You know, "If you ask, I will do it." But also it's important to to note that this is asking according to God's will. SPEAKER A It always has to be underlying everything we ask for. SPEAKER B And that's the best way as well because we want God to, you know, have control over our lives and because he's loving, he's kind and all of these things. SPEAKER A And so these are the points. Well, thank you for that. It's a very extravagant promise, isn't it? If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. Wow. I'm impressed. Back in Colossians again in chapter 4, verse 5 this time. Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside. That would be outside the church. Redeeming the time. What does it mean to walk in wisdom here? Yes. SPEAKER C So the context here in the previous verses as well as within that text is suggesting that walking in wisdom is talking about how you're behaving when you're interacting with people who don't believe in Christ or are not disciples of Christ. And so the idea is to interact carefully and prudently with them so that they can firstly see the light that your life is living in terms of the principles that you're living, but also redeeming the time, in other words, so that you can make the most of every opportunity to bless them, to do them good, and if there's a chance even to share the gospel with them. So it's really talking about, yeah, our conduct when we are reaching out to others. SPEAKER A Okay, and it does make an impact on people's lives, doesn't it? And finally, Colossians 4:6 now, let your speech, more of what you were saying, Kaysie, 'Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer everyone.' What is Paul saying to us here? SPEAKER B Well, that's really interesting to see him saying that the speech should be seasoned with salt. I don't know about you, but when you have a piece of food and there's just not enough salt there, it tastes bland. Yes, the flavor's not there. The flavor's not there. But as soon as you put the salt there, it's like the flavor comes out. And also, back in those days, salt was used for other purposes—to provide healing, to provide preservation, those sorts of things. And so this is how our words should be—seasoned with salt. So they should be helping people and also be beautiful. Okay, okay, now that's really nice. SPEAKER A Encouraging and respectful, so people are left with a nice taste in their mouth, as we say. That's very, very true. Well, thank you for your input today. We need to finish there. Paul has highlighted for us the use of thoughtful courtesies in all of life's interactions. Homes and communities flourish when Spirit-filled people intentionally finally live out their lives like Jesus would as they do this to one another. I'm inspired by that. Well, we're glad you joined us today on Let God Speak. Remember, all our past programs plus teacher's notes are available on our website, 3abnaustralia.org.au, and you can email us if you'd prefer. And do join us again next time. God bless. SPEAKER B You have been listening to let God speak, a production of 3ABN Australia television. To catch up on past programmes, please visit 3abnaustralia.org.au. Call us in Australia on 02 4973 3456. Or email [email protected]. we'd love to hear from you.