The Wrath of Divine Love - 250105

SPEAKER A Hello, I'm Clive Nash. Welcome to Let God Speak Today. Our panel discussion will focus on the topic of the God who blends love, righteous anger and judgement. Any wise parent knows that being a parent is not all hugs and kisses. Faithful nurture also demands at times rebuke, discipline, judgement and consequences. Was the God of the Old Testament a harsh God, but loving in the New Testament? Not if God is the same yesterday, today and forever. We hope that you'll be blessed by the thoughts of our panel today. On our panel today, we have John Kosmeier and Rosemary Malkiewycz. Good to have you with us, Rosemary and John. SPEAKER B Thank you. SPEAKER A I'm looking forward to our discussion. But before we do that, let's take time to pray. Our Almighty God, we do not understand all about you, nor will we ever do this though. But we thank you that you have revealed certain things about yourself in your word, particularly about your character. And we pray that as we dig a little more deeply into youo Word today, that our listeners and our panel will be blessed in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Well, I'd like to begin by reading Psalm 78, verses 2 and 3, where Asaph, the writer of this psalm, says, I will open my mouth in a parable. I will utter dark sayings of old, when which we have heard and known. And our fathers have told us. This is the second longest of the Psalms. And John, can you tell me what he's talking about here when he says the dark sayings of old? What does he mean by that? SPEAKER B It's interesting that the second longest chapter in the Psalms is this one. And it turns out to be a national hymn. And Asaph was contemplating. And so in the margin for verse two and three, we have obscure sayings or riddles. SPEAKER A Okay, so dark sayings could be obscure sayings. SPEAKER B Yes, things that are a bit hard to understand. And this is where, when you read verse five of that psalm, it says, for he established, talking about God, a testimony in Jacob appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers that they should make them known to their children. It reminded them of something that's recorded in Deuteronomy, chapter six and verses six and seven. And I'm reading from the new King James Version, and here in verse 6 and 7, it says, and these words which I command to you today shall be heard, shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up. And so this is from Shema, Hero Israel. It would become the centre of daily Jewish worship. And so Asaph is drawing attention to the history of Judah and Israel. SPEAKER A So Rosemary, according to Asaph, what was this history of Judah and Israel like? Was it all roses? SPEAKER C Oh, everything is always roses. No, it was roller coaster. They were always alternating from being faithful to God to rebellion against God and apostasy. And God was always trying to bring them back. As John Peckham summarises this period of history, and I think it works for us today too, he said that, number one, the people rebelled. Number two, God withdrew from them according to their wishes. They didn't want God around. So God says, okay, I'll step back. Three, the people are oppressed by foreign nations. So many came in and took over. Four, the people then cry out to God for deliverance. God hears them in number five and delivers them from their oppressors because they choose to obey him for a time. And then actually there's another step too, where a new generation comes along and starts rebelling again. They forget what the previous generations had learned. And so there was this continual cycle which we certainly see in the books, Book of Judges, that cycles over and over again of this type of thing. But let's read verse 8 of Psalm 78. And it says, and may not be like their fathers, the generations to come, a stubborn and rebellious generation, a generation that did not set its heart aright and whose spirit was not faithful to God. So while Asaph is looking back, he is saying that this is what they were like. Let's not be the same. God wanted Israel to learn the lesson of obedience and to stop making mistakes of the previous generations. But they didn't. And unfortunately, nor do we. SPEAKER A Yeah, and certainly, you know, God doesn't willingly want to exercise wrath. You know, it's something that's a natural consequence, isn't it, of rebellion. And amongst other things, Asaph recounts the faithfulness of God to Israel and delivering them from Egyptian captivity. SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER A And so John, was Israel faithful in return for that deliverance? SPEAKER B Clive, if only. When you read on in the chapter, verse 32, down to verse 35, it says, in spite of this they still sinned and did not believe in his wondrous works. Therefore their days he consumed in futility and their years in fear. When he slew them, then they sought him, and they returned and sought earnestly for God. Then they remembered that God was their rock. And when you come down to verse 40 and 41, it goes on how often they provoked him in the wilderness grieved him in the desert, yes, again and again they tempted God. And then when you come down to verse 67, to verse 71, moreover, he rejected the tent of Joseph and did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, but chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion, which he loved. And he built his sanctuary like the heights. Let the earth which he has established forever. He also chose David his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds and from following the youths that had young. He brought him to shepherds Jacob his people and Israel his inheritance. The temple worship moved from Shiloh in the north to Jerusalem in the south. But Israel as a nation would not accept their Messiah. And many individuals did not the nation. But fortunately he did name a few who were faithful. And so this is a song about God's faithfulness to his people, undeserving. But amongst them were people who chose to love and to follow and to obey God. SPEAKER A Now, as I understand it, Asaph was a contemporary of King David, the great psalmist John. Can you think of any later examples than the period of King David of this up and down pattern of behaviour by Israel or Judah? SPEAKER B When you go back to the book of Nehemiah, which was before the Psalms, so you go backwards in the Old Testament, and here Nehemiah's story, of course, goes further on, and you turn to Nehemiah, chapter 9, and you come to verse 31, Nehemiah, chapter 9, verse 31. And it says, nevertheless, in your great mercy you did not utterly consume them nor forsake them, for you are God, gracious and merciful. And this is where Nehemiah recounts the history of the Egyptian captivity, of deliverance, of settlement in the promised land, oppression by Syria and so forth. Having returned to Jerusalem, their home country, they promised to be faithful. And here in verse 36, verse 38, here we are servants today. And the land that you gave to our fathers to eat its fruit and its bounty, here we are servants in it. And it will yield much increase to the kings you have set over us because of our sins. Also, they have dominion over our bodies and our cattle at their pleasure. And we are in great distress. And because of all this, we make a sure covenant and write it. Our leaders, our Levites and our priests seal it. And so, having returned to Jerusalem and their home country, they now promise to be faithful. SPEAKER A Good intentions by the sound of it, if only. Yes, and unfortunately, it wasn't the end of the up and down cycle, was it, as far as Israel was concerned? And now, Rosemary, we've been Discussing how God can display anger and wrath. Have you ever felt anger when you've seen evil things happening? SPEAKER C Well, we've got to remember that God experiences anger when he sees the innocent being oppressed, being injured, being abused by selfish people. And we should be angry too, when we see these things happening. Because if we're not, we're not really following God. It should be that when we see injustice, that we are stirred, that we are moved, just as God is. And it also will help us identify with God's pain and anger because we understand why he feels that way. Because we can feel that way too when we see these things happen. SPEAKER A And certainly there's. There's a lot of evil in the world, isn't it? Innocent suffering, as you say. It's interesting when we go to one of the minor prophets in Naomi, the Book of Nahum, chapter one, and I'm going to read verse one two and the first part of verse three, where the prophet says, the burden against Nineveh, the book of the vision of Nahum, the Elkishite God is jealous and the Lord avenges. The Lord avenges and is furious. They sound like very human characteristics, don't they? The Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserves wrath for his enemies. But then it says, but the Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked. So John the prophet maintains that God is slow to anger, even though he's jealous and furious. How do you account for these seeming contradictions? SPEAKER B Well, once again, we've got to turn to another section of the Bible, because that's where we find the answer to the what's being questioned here. And so we go to the Book of Jonah, and we read the first chapter, verses one and two. Now, the word of the Lord came to Jonah, the son of Amitti, saying, arise. Go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it, for their wickedness has come up before me. And so here God always seems to be sending a messenger to people who are wicked. And before something really bad happens to them, a good message is given to them. And this is the case in Jonah. And so it tells us that the anger of God may be there, but his capacity to help is there too. SPEAKER A Now, of course, Jonah is 100 years earlier than Nahum. So you know, there was a difference between their repentance in the time of Jonah and their later condemnation by God. So Jonah, tell me, Rosemary, did Jonah have evidence of God being patient? Was he patient with Nineveh? Or was he patient with Jonah as well? SPEAKER C He was very patient with Jonah because Jonah was called to go on the mission for God to Nineveh. And he went, he tried to go to the completely opposite side of the world. God had to stop him through a terrible storm, through a fish, a giant fish that God had swallow him and then spit him up on the. On the beach. He's very fortunate. And then God said in Jonah three verses, 1 and 2, 3. Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it, the message that I tell you. So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh. He did the right thing this time, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three day journey in extent, so it was a very large city, but Jonah actually went there. Sometimes it can take God a long time to get through to us. And all of us can be a bit slow of understanding when God's speaking to us. I mean, God is speaking to people all the time. Even now, maybe some of the viewers, and they still haven't got the message from God, still haven't surrendered their lives to him. But that's God's ultimate aim and that's what he wanted to do with the people of Nineveh. SPEAKER A So John, did you see any evidences in this book about God being slow to anger in the book of Jonah? SPEAKER B Jonah has an interesting twist in it, because here God sent Jonah to Nineveh and the end result was chapter three and verse ten where it says, then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way. You see, even the king had torn his garment and sat in the rubbish bin, showing how that he was so sorry for what had happened both with him and also with his city. And now we find here that God relented from the disaster that he said he would bring upon them, and he did not do it. And so God actually had an anger that was appeased by people's obedience. SPEAKER A What did Jonah think of that? SPEAKER B And then it was Jonah's turn to become angry. Here in verse one of chapter four, it says that which is the next verse, but it displeased Jonah exceedingly and he became angry. But this is not the God kind of anger, because it says so. He prayed to the Lord and said, lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country, therefore I fled to Tarshish, for I know that you are gracious and merciful God, slow to anger, abundant in Loving kindness, one who relents from doing harm and has made me into a liar because the message that I preached of what God would do to you hasn't been fulfilled. And here was, here was Jonah angry because of what was happening to him when he should have been rejoicing with the people of what was happening to them. SPEAKER C Yes. SPEAKER B And then when you go to the New Testament, Paul in Romans chapter 3 and starting with verse 21, but the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by his law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ. And here in verse 26, to demonstrate at the present time his righteousness that he might be just and the justifier of one this faith. And here we find that what God did in Jonah's time is revealed in the New Testament as support of the fact that our God is a loving God. SPEAKER A Okay, so Rosemary, we talked about God being angry with wrong and injustice. Can God, or Jesus Christ for that matter, be angry in a righteous way? SPEAKER C God's anger is always just and righteous. Let's look at Matthew 21:12 13. It says, Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. And he said to them, it is written, my house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves. Now we've got to understand what was actually happening here. Jesus was angry with what these men were doing in the temple, which was supposed to be the house of God, the house of prayer for all nations. They'd corrupted the temple and the sacrificial system that represented Jesus. And so he overturned their tables, he threw the money changes out the people, because what they were meant to do was to be there as a service for the travellers and for the poor, so that when they came to the temple, they could purchase an animal to sacrifice. And the problem that was going on, the people couldn't bring an animal with them as they travelled, so they bought the animal and these money changers were charging them exorbitantly prices for the animals. And they're also there to change the money from the their ordinary money to the temple taxes money. And the men were charging them a lot of money for the exchange. So this excited Jesus righteous anger because these things were being done to pervert the people and the truth. There's a in Ellen White wrote in the Desire of Ages, so completely were they controlled by their greed These men of gain, that in the sight of God they were no better than thieves. The very symbols pointing to the Lamb of God, they had made a means of getting gain. So these men were there purely to get money out of people who could not necessarily afford it. Instead of doing the work of God, it was a righteous anger. SPEAKER A Now, John, the gospel, your namesake John, he's got a more dramatic twist to this too. SPEAKER B Oh, here In John chapter 2 and verse 14 to 16, we find that Jesus was so upset about what was happening in the temple that in verse 14 it says, and he found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves and the money changers doing business. When he had made a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple with the sheep and the oxen and poured out the changes money and overturned the tables. And he said to those who sold doves, take these things away. Do not make my father's house a house of merchandise. And so here, as one commentator wrote about the whip, this was righteous anger. He did not use the whip or scourge to strike the money changers, but as one Bible commentary says, the whip was symbolic of his authority, and a flourish in the air would suffice to make his intentions clear. Another commentator says the ejection from the temple of traders with their beasts and birds for sacrifice and scattering of their money is an act of. Of wrath which the traitors were powerless to resist. And I think the whip indicated that you cannot mess with God. When he gets angry about something, you'd better take notice. SPEAKER A Yeah. And it's not a sinful kind of anger. SPEAKER C It's not. SPEAKER B It's not, you know, it's not a sinful anger at all. It's just one way you want righteousness to be done. SPEAKER A In John 2:17, John writes here that the disciples remembered that it was written, zeal for your house has eaten me up. So zeal is another word John uses. Rosemary. Can you think of any other examples when Jesus was cranky or unhappy? SPEAKER C Well, let's look first at John 10, 13, 16. It says, then they brought little children to him, that he might touch them. But the disciples rebuked them, those who brought them. And when Jesus saw it, he was greatly displeased and said to them, let the little children come to me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it. And he took them up in his arms, laid his hands on them and blessed them. And then if we go to chapter three of Mark, we see an even stronger version. Here it says, and he entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand. So they watched him closely whether he would heal him on the Sabbath so that they might accuse him. And he said to the man who had the withered hand, step forward. Then he said to him, is it law? Or to them, is it lawful on the Sabbath day to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill? And they kept silent. And when he had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, he said to the man, stretch out your hand. And he stretched it out, and the hand was restored as whole as the other. Then the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against him how they might destroy him. So here Jesus did wonderful things. He was angry because of the hardness of their hearts. And when he had done this wonderful act, they plotted on how to get rid of him. SPEAKER A Now, John, in pagan society, back in this era, in the Old Testament times, particularly, the people thought that the gods had human characteristics, didn't they? SPEAKER B When you go to the Book of Lamentations as a result of Jeremiah's work here in chapter three and verse 31 down to 33, it says, for the Lord will not cast off forever, though he causes grief, yet he will show compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he does not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. And this is where it's a lesson that we can learn, that when God chastises us, and that has the concept of whipping, when he chastises us, verse 40 gives us the answer. Let us search out and examine our ways and turn back. In other words, stay with the Lord. SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER A Okay, thanks, John. I'd like to just refer to an earlier book in the Old Testament, and that's the book of ezra. Ezra, chapter 5. And verse 12 says, but because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to wrath. Interesting word, wrath. There he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, the Chaldean who destroyed the temple and carried the people away to Babylon. What's the background to that statement? SPEAKER C Rosemary, the children of Judah had been unfaithful to God, and God had allowed them to go into baptism, into captivity by the Babylonians. And that was just to try and teach them to be obedient. He did it many times. SPEAKER A Just a final question for You, Rosemary, if I may. Can we avoid the wrath of God? SPEAKER C We certainly can. Let's look at Thessalonians 5. 9. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. That is what God wants to do for us all. That is the ultimate aim of God in all that is happening on this earth. That he wants to get us into heaven, not keep us out. And that's the best news we could ever have. We've got God on our side. SPEAKER A And God being who he is and his nature being what it is, he can blend justice and wrath with love, can't he? SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER A Which is something that you and I find a little difficult to do, I think, in practise. SPEAKER C God's wrath is always to do with things that are unjust, things that are hurting other people. It's not for a selfish motive. It's for others. SPEAKER A Yeah. And we have to remember that, as John says in his letter, God is love. SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER A Okay. Well, thank you very much. My guests today were John Kosmeier and Rosemary Malkiewycz. And I'm your host, Clive Nash. You know, unlike divine love, wrath is not essential to the Godhead. It only exists because of sin. When sin is forever eradicated from the universe there'll be no need for God's righteous indignation. What a wonderful day that will be when only love and righteousness reign. Well, friends, we're glad you've joined us today on Let God Speak. If you are blessed by this programme, why not tell your friends? Remember, all past programmes plus Teacher's Notes are available on our website, 3abnaustralia.org.au that's the numeral three. And you can email us if you wish on [email protected] Once again, that's the number three, followed by the letters A, B and Australia. So until next time, God bless. SPEAKER B You have been listening to let God speak, a production of 3ABN Australia television. To catch up on past programmes, please visit 3abnaustralia.org.au. Call us in Australia on 02 4973 3456. Or email [email protected]. we'd love to hear from you.