The Nations: Part 2 - 250205

SPEAKER A Hello, I'm Rosemary Malkiewycz. Welcome to Let God Speak. Sir. Winston Churchill knew firsthand about conflict between nations. He said, the story of the human race is war. Except for brief and precarious interludes, there has never been peace in the world. Is he right? And if so, why is this the case? In our discussion today, we will continue to look at the problem of human government compared to God's governance. Join us as we discuss how this subject is powerfully revealed in the prophetic Book of Daniel. On our panel today, we have Lazio Crescentini and Cassie Sollano. Welcome, both of you. SPEAKER B Thank you. SPEAKER A Let's pray before we speak about the Word of God. Father in Heaven, we thank you that we can discuss your word today. We pray that you'll be with us, help us to really understand what we're talking about, what we're listening to. I pray that the listeners and viewers will be blessed and have a richer reward for watching this programme and a greater understanding of what is happening in our world. So be with us and bless us. I pray in Jesus name. Amen. God warned his people of what would happen if they turned away from him and chose instead to be ruled by earthly monarchs. History shows they got exactly what God said they would get. Sinful monarchs ruling over sinful people is not a good combination for good governance. Yes, Winston Churchill's assessment was correct. Human history is full of wars, abuses and deceptions. Strong nations crush small nations and worldly power prevails over wisdom and justice. We are left to wonder, where is God in all this confusion? To answer this question, we need to go right back to the beginning at creation and then move into Bible prophecy. So I am going to ask you a question, Cassie, and I'm sure you're going to have a good answer for me. When God created the world, what did he say about the condition of what he had created? SPEAKER B Well, each day of creation, God declared his creation good. And at the end of six days, when he'd finished creating all life, he even declared it was very good. We can find that in Genesis 1, verse 31, which says, Then God saw everything that he had made. And indeed it was very good. It's amazing to think in our world now, but back then it was perfect. He even created the Sabbath day for this perfect creation. In Genesis 2, 3, it says, and this is God talking. And, yeah, it's amazing to think about. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made. SPEAKER A Very good. And that's what the world was. Yes, Very good, Lazio. In the perfect world God created, he actually gave Adam and Eve a command. Let me read that. In Genesis, chapter 2, verses 15 and 16, the Bible says, then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, of every tree of the garden, you may freely eat. And verse 17 says, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, you will, or you shall surely die. So why would God give them this command? What would be the purpose? SPEAKER C That's a really good question. Because humans were created with freedom of choice, and that is to taste their loyalty, their obedience and love for God. So God's prohibition was not a negative command. It was essentially there to protect Adam and Eve from knowing evil. And we can look at it as well, where a single command not to eat from one tree amidst all the billions of trees. That should have been a really easy test. SPEAKER A Yes, that's for sure. I mean, all the trees were beautiful, and there was only one. He said, don't eat off. He said, that's my tree. You can't have that one. Let's read Genesis 3, verses 4 to 6, because this is very important. Then the serpent said to the woman, you will not surely die, which I read just before God said they would. For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Now, tragically, Adam and Eve listened to the words of Satan instead of listening to God, and they disobeyed God and brought sin and death into the world. Eve said, or the Bible says that Eve saw that the tree was good for food, but God had said it wasn't, and so they went against what he said. So what happened to the relationship between God and man because of that sin? SPEAKER B Adam and Eve listening to this lie of Satan, put them under the power and control of Satan. They could not resist his temptation, and that naturally fractured their relationship with God. We find just a couple of verses later in chapter three of Genesis, it says, and they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord. God among the trees of the garden. Their knowledge of their sin brought them shame and actually drove them to try and hide from God's presence. SPEAKER A That is so sad. What were the physical consequences of the fall? Lazio? SPEAKER C Yes. In Genesis, chapter 3, verse 16 to 19, God pronounced judgement on creation because of sin. And I want us to go and look at Genesis, chapter 3, verse 22, 23. And it says, then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever, therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden to till the ground from which he was taken. So because of their disobedience of eating of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve could no longer eat of the tree of life, and that denied them access then to have that immortality. So eventually they would die and evil became entrenched into mankind. So God eventually had to destroy it all. And that's when the flood came, and Noah and his family were the only ones that were saved. SPEAKER A Well, after the flood, evil soon resurfaced. It wasn't done away with through ham especially. It came back and a line of descendants were faithful to God as their king. But it didn't happen forever. We see that they turned away from God, many of them, not everyone. So how long did people stay faithful to God after the flood? SPEAKER B Well, Moses led the Israelites from Egyptian captivity about 900 years after the flood. From then on, the Israelites followed God on and off for another 350 years. But one day the Israelites told Samuel, the last judge and prophet, that they wanted a king like the surrounding pagan nations. We find this recorded in 1st Samuel, chapter 8, verses 5 to 7. They say to Samuel, look, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations, this being the pagan nations. But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, give us a king to judge us. So Samuel prayed to the Lord and the Lord said to Samuel, heed the voice of the people. And all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. They rejected God as their leader, as their monarch, in favour of an earthly one. And naturally this led to them having to deal with all the problems of a human. A sinful human. SPEAKER A That's right. Instead of a loving, righteous God being in charge. Lazio. Did these earthly kings bring lasting peace and happiness to the people? SPEAKER C Unfortunately, not so. There was a general increase in wickedness, and we can see that right out throughout the Bible. So after Solomon, Israel was divided, and it was Israel and Judah. And the Bible describes those kings following those 20 kings afterwards as very wicked. And destruction came because of that onto the Israelites. And that happened with the Assyrians that came in 722 B.C. and there was a few kings as well from Judah that stood firm, that stood by God. But the nation eventually went into apostasy, and that equaled again, once again, went into destruction. And that's with Jerusalem then being destroyed in 586 BC and eventually they were kept being taken captive, taken to Babylon for 70 years. SPEAKER A Yes, we see that as the end result, the final result of the people not choosing to follow God as their king. But God then reached out to pagan kings. So how did you do this, Cassie? SPEAKER B God was actually able to use one of the Hebrew captives as his prophet. This was Daniel, which is an amazing thing, that even when it probably seemed that all was lost, he used one of those captives. And at the time, the most powerful king on earth was Nebuchadnezzar. And we find in Daniel 2 that God gave Nebuchadnezzar a dream. And the king knew the dream he had was important. And I'm sure everyone's had a dream that they thought, oh, that was interesting. But this was way more than that. This was something he knew he must have an answer to, but he could not remember it. So God revealed the dream to Daniel and its interpretation, who then could turn and tell it to the king. I'd like to read Daniel 2, verses 31 to 35. And this explains the dream and describes what happened. You, O king, were watching and behold a great image. This great image, whose splendour was excellent, stood before you, and its form was awesome. This image's head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on the feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed together and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors. The wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. SPEAKER A In the king's dream, there were represented four different types of metal, and these represented kingdoms. So, Lazio, what is the key point to make about the metals? SPEAKER C Yes. So according to Daniel, chapter two, verse 38 to 45, it gives us interpretation of those different metals. And it's basically the successive kingdoms that will follow one after the other. And the head of gold was Babylon. And go to Daniel, chapter two, verse 38 to 41. So Daniel 38, Daniel 2:38. And whether the children of men dwell or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens, he has given them into your hand and he has made you ruler over them. You are the head of gold, but after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours, then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything. And like an iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and the toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron. The kingdom shall be divided, yet the strength of the iron shall be in it. Just as you saw the iron mix with ceramic clay. So these metals were gold, silver, bronze, and then iron. And every time it's inferior to the other one. And eventually finally it will come to the feet that were partly clay and partly iron. And that was a mix and was a worthless combination. And that showed a decline of human society. And without God. And it just shows me as well that they won't last without God. It's impossible. SPEAKER A That's right. They didn't. One succeeded after another one. And so was the king impacted by the interpret interpretation of the dream that was given to him by Daniel? SPEAKER B Yes, absolutely. It had an enormous impact. The king recognised that this was miraculous. He had sought out wise men and he had sought out other gods to have this dream told to him. But only Daniel's God was able to give it to him. And he recognised that means Daniel's God was stronger than any other God. I'd like to read Daniel 2:46, 47, which describes then king Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face prostrate before Daniel and commanded that they should present an offering and incense to him. The king answered Daniel and said, truly, your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret. And additionally, he also realised this message meant his kingdom wasn't going to last forever. SPEAKER A Forever, that's for sure. It failed. So, Lazio, when we listen to this story of, or when we read this story of Nebuchadnezzar, did he accept God as the true ruler. SPEAKER C Not straight away. So his pride, his stubbornness all came and overruled his reason. So he didn't think straight. So he did not accept that his kingdom would eventually come to an end. He would not accept that. But he did witness God at times with Daniel and his three friends when they went into the fiery furnace. He witnessed that and it gave him something. But eventually lost that just quick. It didn't last that long. But God had to intervene. And finally God gave him a mind of an ox and he ate grass for seven years. Right? SPEAKER A Not my idea of a diet. SPEAKER C Absolutely not. And then after, after that he accepted God, he became humble. And I want to. If you look at that, let's go to Daniel 4, 37. And it says, now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honour the king of heaven, all whose works are truth and his ways, justice, and those who walk in pride, he is able to put down. So it'll change. SPEAKER A So Cassie, is there a lesson we can learn from Nebuchadnezzar in this story? SPEAKER B There is. We must learn to not let our pride get in the way that we, like Nebuchadnezzar, could so easily forego our reason in favour of our pride. And I'd like to just remember the words of Proverbs. And this is 16, verse 18 says, pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. We must remember this. SPEAKER A That's right. Very good. So let's turn to Daniel, chapter seven. And what's the background for this chapter? Latio? SPEAKER C Yes. So we just looked at Daniel 2. So Daniel 2, the king had a dream of the future. But now In Daniel chapter 7, God gives Daniel a vision of the future. And if we look at Daniel chapter 7, verse 1, it says in the first year of Belshazzar, king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of. Of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down a dream telling the main facts. So this took place right at the end of the Babylonian kingdom. So King Belshazzar, he was the second ruler at that stage and his father was away at war and put him in place in charge of the kingdom. And it was during Belsasar's reign that Babylon then got destroyed by the Medes and the Persians. And we can read that in Daniel chapter five. SPEAKER A Yes, it's a good place to go and learn that story. It's very, very good. So I'm just going to read Daniel 7, 2, 3. And it says Daniel spoke, saying, I saw in My vision by night. And behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea, and four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. So this is the vision that Daniel saw while he was asleep in bed. So what's happening here, Cassie? SPEAKER B This is actually the same subject as given in Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2, but from a different perspective. Instead of getting different metals representing the successive kingdoms, here we read of strange beasts coming out of the windswept sea. These animals, as continues to be described in verses 4 to 8, represent the same four kingdoms as the four metals. Babylon, Medo, Persia, Greece and Rome. However, the information after the fourth kingdom differs in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. SPEAKER A What is the significance, I want to know here, Lazio, of the beast coming out of a turbulent sea, being windswept? SPEAKER C Absolutely. And to answer that question, I want us to go to Isaiah. So Isaiah 17, 12, 13. Woe to the multitude of many people who make a noise like the roar of the seas and the rushing of nations that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters. The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters, but God will rebuke them and they will flee far away and be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind, like a rolling thing before the whirlwind. So we can see here that the sea represents the strife, the turmoil amongst these gentile nations and it's causing this constant shift all the time in power among them is this continue shift of power. Is that violent? Is very violent. So it's not a smooth thing. It's. Yeah. And it's quite continually going on. SPEAKER A Right, well, this symbolism of water. I'm staying with you, Lazio. With the addition of dry land or earth, appears again in the book of Revelation. So if we go to Revelation chapter 12, verses 15 and 16, we get this water again, this sea, and it says. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. So what does this mean? I mean, this is another strange episode. SPEAKER C Yeah, absolutely. So it's very clear from Revelation 12,9 that the Bible identifies the serpent as Satan and the flood symbolises the Gentile and the religious armies, which is inspired by Satan then to go and destroy God's true people. And if we look at God's true people, they are that pure Woman, the church of the faithful, church of God. And I want to go Isaiah. If you go to Isaiah, chapter 54 and verse 5 to 6, for your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is his name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. He is called the God of the whole earth. For the Lord has called you like a woman, forsaken and grieved in spirit, like, like a youthful wife. When you were refused, says your God, So Satan tried to destroy them, tried to destroy God's church. But God was there protecting her and taking even in remote places where he took care of them. SPEAKER A It's interesting that we see this comparison between the earth being used to help her and the flood, or the water trying to destroy her and these beasts also in Daniel coming up out of this turbulent water and how they all fit together. Prophecy is wonderful when you start to put it together. So in Revelation 13, a terrible beast arises from the sea. Once again, the sea. And another beast rises out of the earth, which we've just had Lazio read about. So what connection is there between these beasts, Cassie? SPEAKER B Yes, well, there is absolutely a connection. But first we find that there is a difference. The beast that arises from the sea, this means it arises from a populated region with strife and tumult. The land beast, by contrast, arises from a remote and sparsely populated region of the world. And further study reveals to us the sea beast is the political religious power of the Roman Church. And the earth beast is the United States. I'd like to read in Revelation 13, verse 11, it says, Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. So that's where we get the reference to that beast. The USA started as a government built on freedom of conscience and religion in a sparsely populated land. So this is how that is identified. But According to Revelation 13, 12, 17, this earth beast later speaks as a dragon joining up with the sea beast it persecutes and actually kills God's people. SPEAKER A It's interesting that we see that the woman was protected by being taken to the earth. The earth helped her. And then this beast with the lamb like horns, but speaks as a dragon comes out out of the earth. So it must be the same sort of place that we're looking at here. So God's people fled to the United States, and the United States is the one that comes up like a lamb that speaks as a dragon, like you said, very interesting. So again we see the results of governments that are led by sinful rulers. And from the prophecies of Daniel 2 and 7, what do we look forward to today? SPEAKER C Lazio yes, from Daniel 2 We are living in that time of the iron and the clay, but the best is yet to come. So if we read Daniel 2:44 and it says, and in the days of these kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, and the kingdom shall not be left on top to other people. It shall be break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. So in Daniel chapter seven, we are living in a time of judgement right at the end. And I want to go, if you look at Daniel 6, 7 26, so Daniel 7 26, but the court shall be seated and they shall take away his dominion to consume and destroy it forever. As we see the exact fulfilment of Bible prophecy and what had happened in the past, we can be sure and confident that the kingdom that's coming is the external kingdom. SPEAKER A That's right. What a wonderful story. Thank you both Lazio and Cassie for discussing this with us. In the Garden of Eden, there were two trees. Adam and Eve sinned when they chose to disobey God and eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. As a result, they were denied access to the Tree of Life. Since then, sinful humans, separated from God, have constantly tried to dominate others, resulting in a life of strife and death. But soon God will remake the earth like the Garden of Eden, including the Tree of life. As Revelation 21:4 says, God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There shall be no more death, nor sin, sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Those who choose God as their king in this life will live with him forever in perfect peace and harmony. Please choose him as your king today. Thank you for joining us today on Let God Speak. All past programmes plus teacher's notes are available at our website, 3abinaustralia.org au. You can email to us and join us again next time. We'd love to see you. God bless. SPEAKER B You have been listening to let God speak, a production of 3ABN Australia television. To catch up on past programmes, please visit 3abnaustralia.org.au. Call us in Australia on 02 4973 3456. Or email [email protected]. we'd love to hear from you.