The Impending Conflict - 240211

SPEAKER A Hello, I'm Mike Browning. Welcome to let God speak. Everyone seems to wonder, what is truth? People get confused by the idea of everyone's truth being equally valid. So is it? Is our own personal version of truth enough to stake eternity on? Today, we'll let the Bible tell us. Well, folks, on our panel today, we have Gayl Fong and John Kosmeier. Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate your input today, and we'd like to invite everybody here and at home to join with us as we pray. Father in heaven, we thank you so much for your scriptures and its power, and I pray that your holy spirit will be here with us as we discuss it, to understand it, to gain its clear message to us today about truth. We pray this, please, in Jesus name. Amen. SPEAKER B Amen. SPEAKER A Now, a simple question, John. Is it important for us to know truth? SPEAKER C Mike, anything that's not truth is a lie, and lies have consequences, and they're not harmless. And so it's vital to know what is truth. For example, is the world round or is the world flat? And what you believe will cause you to act and think in certain ways? SPEAKER A It can't be both of those, though, can it? That's the trick. All right, thanks for that, John. So we do need to know truth. Go. What does the scripture say about truth? SPEAKER B Well, in the gospel of John, John, chapter eight and verse 32, in the words of Jesus, Jesus said, and you shall know the truth. Truth shall make you free. So it brings freedom from, obviously, the addictive power of sin. And it goes on in the same chapter, in verse 36, in the words of Jesus. Therefore, if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. So this underscores the fact that Jesus is the truth, and this is why the truth has so much power, and to make people a holy people, it makes us a holy people. And it says also in the book of John, John, chapter 17 and verse 17, in the words of Jesus, he says, sanctify them by your truth. Your word is truth. SPEAKER A So it is powerful, isn't it? SPEAKER B Very powerful. SPEAKER A Sanctify us. Make us holy. Thank you for that, Gael. Appreciate that God has special truths for our age, and I want to read about that in revelation, chapter 14. If you'd like to turn with me here for a moment. Revelation 14. I'm going to read there verse six and verse seven. And this is what it says. Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation, tribe, tongue and people. So this is a worldwide message. Everybody has to get this. So this is going to happen. And then there are some specific aspects of the everlasting gospel referred to in verse seven. This is what it says, saying with a loud voice, fear God and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgement has come. And worship him who made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. So what are the special truths that stand out for you, John, here in verse seven, particularly when you think carefully. SPEAKER C About this, what stands out for me is the fact that God is the creator and we live in a world that has different ideas. Yes, but when you turn to psalm 100 and I'm reading from the new King James version, and it says verse three, know that the Lord, he is God. It is he who has made us. So he's our creator. SPEAKER A Not only, I notice it goes on to say after it says, and he who has made us, not we, ourselves, which I think a crucial point because the theory of evolution is dependent upon us remaking ourselves and better every time. That's the whole idea. So it seems like evolution is not a modern idea after all. Some idea existed way back then, 1000 bc. All right, thank you for that, John. Gayl? So we believe in God as a creator. If we read this book and believe this book, how do we show that? How do we demonstrate our confidence in God as creator? SPEAKER B Well, God has settled that question for us in the Ten Commandments, and he settled it himself there in the book of Exodus, Exodus, chapter 20 and verse eight, this reading there, it says, remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. So here Sabbath is specifically focused on, we're worshipping God as our creator and moving down to verse eleven, the same, the same commandment. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them and rested the 7th day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. So obviously that, remember, is very important, isn't it? He wants us to have an intelligent understanding of him as our creator. SPEAKER A Okay? In fact, he made us. That's the critical point, John, using a little bit of circular reasoning here, what is it that makes observing the Sabbath commandment of which we have just read? What is it that makes observing the Sabbath as a memorial of creation so important and so significant for us here? SPEAKER C The reason is because Lucifer has challenged God for his own position. And this is where in Isaiah, chapter 14 and verse 14, it says, I, and this is Satan, Lucifer, the devil speaking at this time, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will be like the most high. SPEAKER A Okay. SPEAKER C But God's creative power stops anything of his creation claiming to be God the creator. SPEAKER A It's ridiculous when you think about it. The people who created should claim that. SPEAKER C Yes. SPEAKER A Yeah, thanks, John for that. Another question here go. Why all this fuss about a day? Like the 7th day? Specifically, why this fuss about a day? Couldn't we nominate any day of the week and say, we will still make that a memorial of God as creator? Couldn't we do that? SPEAKER B Well, the great controversy with Lucifer is finally about authority and our allegiance to that authority. So either God and his Sabbath or Lucifer and his Sabbath, and for good reason, then God's commandments are prominent, a prominent feature for God's people. And we find that in the book of Revelation, the book of revealing. There in revelation, chapter twelve and verse 17, for God's end time people, it says, and the dragon was enraged with the woman and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. It also says at the end of the three angel message, revelation 1412, again it says, here is the patience of the saints. So there's this patient enduring under trial. Here are the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. SPEAKER A Okay, so they too go hand in hand. And that's a description of God's people at the end of time. So these are his favourite people, which is an interesting thought. Look, thank you for that. There's a time coming when it won't be popular to be amongst God's people who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. That's the scripture saying that. So John, why is that? What is it about believing in Jesus and being obedient to him that brings on such a reaction from some people? SPEAKER C Some people they do not like, others who live godly lives, in fact, they don't like it so much that they'll actually persecute them. And this was foretold in the book of Timothy, where Paul is writing to Timothy, and it's in two Timothy, chapter three and verse twelve. And it says, yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. And so when God transforms their lives, it goads others into becoming persecutors. SPEAKER A Okay. There's something about people attempting to live a godly life that irritates some people and that's so true, John. Thank you for that. Actually, Gayl, history is quite clear, isn't it? About during the Middle Ages, what some call the dark ages of time or history, there was horrendous persecution of people who were trying to live a simple christian faith in the manner that we've seen described here in the scriptures. We are kind of hopeful that won't happen again. Surely it can't happen again like that. SPEAKER B Well, according to the Bible and prophecy in revelation 13 and verses 16 and 17, particularly chapter 13, we're told that it will arise again. And just reading verse 16 and 17 there of chapter 13, it says, he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no. 1 may buy or sell, except one who has the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name. So there's a boycott here. And finally, a death decree that is pronounced, actually, in verse 15, it says, of the same chapter, he was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. SPEAKER A It's very serious. SPEAKER B It's very serious. SPEAKER A And this is still future, of course. SPEAKER B Yes. According to scripture. SPEAKER A Yeah. So it's quite a challenging piece of scripture to read, actually, for us today. Look, let's take a moment to identify the political and religious institutions that will be involved in enforcing this mark that you've just been reading about for us there, Gayl. John, is this likely to happen anytime soon? That's the question that we want to talk about. SPEAKER C It will happen very soon because it's going to happen just before Jesus comes. And we live in a world where Jesus is ready to come. This is where revelation chapter 14 gives us a word of advice. Because living at the end of time, the devil is going to take that as an opportunity to try and win as many people over to him as he possibly can. And God says, uh uh. And here in revelation, chapter 14 and verse twelve, he says, here is the patience of the saints. So to live through this time of persecution, we have to have godly patience. And here are they who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And these two things are absolutely vital in the truth that we believe today. SPEAKER A Okay, thank you, John, for that, because this is all in the setting of those messages in revelation 14 six seven that we read, which we're at the beginning of our discussion today. So this is a serious thing this is worldwide. That's the amazing thing. So where does the power and authority come from to enforce this mark? Right around the world, when you think about this, is an amazing attack against God's authority. How is this going to happen? SPEAKER B Yes, well, going back to revelation, chapter 13 there, and there's no surprises here. As we read this verse, we're reading verse two of chapter 13, and it says, and now the beast, which I saw was like a leopard and his feet were like a bear and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. It says, the dragon gave him his power, his throne and great authority. So it's not a power from heaven, it's not a power from God, is from Satan himself. SPEAKER A Yeah, okay. Okay, John, that dragon that gal's been talking about, you better identify the dragon for us, if you would do that. SPEAKER C Many surprises here, because this dragon, he was actually a glorious angel that God created, but he set himself up, tried to set himself up as God. And as a result, we read in revelation, chapter twelve, starting from verse seven, and it says, and war broke out in heaven. SPEAKER A That's amazing to think about, isn't it? SPEAKER C Where Jesus and his angels. Michael, that's another one of the 276 names of Christ. So, Michael, Jesus and his angels fought with the dragon, the one that you were reading about, Karl. But they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon. This is verse nine now. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old called the devil and Satan, who deceives. Once again, we're dealing with truth and lies and lies here. He deceives the whole world. Who deceives the whole world. And he was cast out to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Ever wondered why we have so much trouble in this world? SPEAKER A That's why, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. No, thank you. So, there's a spiritual power here whom we know as the devil. His name was Lucifer. Yep. Thank you for that. Now, Gayl, we need to move on a little bit further. I'm going to read a verse in chapter 13. That's verse eight. And this is what it says, all who dwell on the earth will worship him. This is the beast whose names have not notice not been written in the book of life, of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So who is this beast here, Gayl? This is the one that enforces the mark, the one we just read about. SPEAKER B Well, history records that the Church of Rome coveted political power. And a big mistake, of course, for any religion. SPEAKER A Yes, and then. And today, too, of course, it's still. SPEAKER B A problem, and persecution always follows. And when Emperor Constantine, in the year 330 AD, he moved his capital from Rome to Constantinople, which is interesting. I did a little research on that. And this is 850 miles to the east of Rome. And it was known anciently as Bison, I think, byzantine, and then Constantinople. And of course, it was also. He renamed it the new Rome, which was interesting as well, in his day. And of course, today we know it as Constantinople. But. So the papacy filled that vacuum. SPEAKER A Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it's been changed again to Istanbul. SPEAKER B Oh, wow. That's right. Istanbul today. It's amazing. So many name changes through history. SPEAKER A That wasn't officially the new name until 1930, interestingly enough, Istanbul. But anyhow, moving on, what is the history does record all these things. What is the historical record, John, of this event with the move of the roman political power, if you like, to Constantinople, leaving that power vacuum. SPEAKER C Let me just read what the historian Thomas Hobbes said. The papacy is none other than the ghost of the deceased roman empire. And so it swung from a purely political power into a religious power, which also now deals with a political power as well. SPEAKER A Okay, thank you for that. That's true. Okay, I'm still in chapter 13. I'd like to read verse five here now. And he was given a mouth, speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for 42 months. Now, we have to move along fairly quickly here. Now, just quickly, Gayl, does the church of Rome fit this biblical criteria that we outlined in that verse there, for example? SPEAKER B Well, according to the Bible, in John, chapter ten, verse 33, it says, the Jews answered him, saying, for a good work, we do not stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God. So someone who claiming to be God is blasphemy, truly, Jesus was God. But this is blasphemy for anyone who claims to be God. SPEAKER A That's true. SPEAKER B And Luke, chapter five, and verse 21, the Bible says, and the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, who is this? Who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone? So, again, usurping that right that belongs to God and saying, you can forgive sin. SPEAKER A Very clear one. SPEAKER B Very clear. SPEAKER A Very clear indeed. No, thank you for that. So we have to be aware of the power of the scripture and stick with what its message is. Now, there's a time period mentioned there in revelation, chapter 13, verse five. Also John. And it talks about the time period which this beast, land beast is to have power for. And I'll read it just 13. Five again, he was given a mouth, speaking great things, etcetera, given authority to continue for 42 months. Can you throw some light on that for us? SPEAKER C Yes. 42 months in prophetic time. You have to multiply it by 30 to get the number of days. So here were 1260 days. And this is mentioned in the book of Daniel because Daniel explains revelation. A day in prophecy is equal to a year. So we have the papacy ruling for 1260 years starting from the date 538, when the papacy control, gained control of Rome because they overthrew the Ostrogoths. SPEAKER A That's right. The remnant of the roman army did that. They got rid of the Ostrogoths and there was a total way open then for the church in Rome to take political power. And as they've already said, that's been a snare to religions of all flavour throughout history to do that. Okay, do the maths for us, please. GAA quickly. When would the beast authority end? Is the question. How long did it last for 1216? How did it end? SPEAKER B Yes. Well, this 1260 years on, from 538 ad, as John has mentioned there, brings us to 1798, when the French stormed Rome and took the pope prisoner. So this was a serious blow, but not fatal, as I read from scripture in revelation 13 three, and the Bible says, and I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marvelled and followed the beast. SPEAKER A That's so interesting. So while it suffered a serious blow, and I know when General Berthier, the Roman, not the Roman, the French, general Berthier, when he did take the pope a prisoner, they thought, the world thought that was the end of the roman church's political power. But it's come back from, as it were, from the dead, just as the scripture says, which is very interesting to us indeed. Okay, so this revived beast that had the deadly wound and revived is the one that goes after those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus, as we mentioned before. And I'm going to read chapter 14, verse twelve again, because it's so relevant. Here is the patience of the saints. Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. That's a very simple way, God is said, of identifying his people the way he wants his people to look in the last days. Anybody can follow that. And I'm glad it's so simple. So this revived beast, what is the great, what is of great interest today to us in terms of understanding the Sabbath commandment. What is of great interest is, does the papacy, does the church of Rome have any interest in that Sabbath commandment today? What do we know about that? John? SPEAKER C Absolutely. Very interested, but it's a bit of a surprise because it's not a Bible one. This is where Pope Benedict declared that Sunday is the day of the Lord and of men and of women. In defending Sunday, we defend human freedom. And subtle arguments like this will sound conclusive to most people and those who disagree with it, because that's not what the Bible teaches. Those who disagree with it, they're going to be a target again of persecution. SPEAKER A So human logic is not a good replacement for God's plain statements in the scripture. Now, another power appears on the world scene during the time of the end, as the scripture puts it, following 1798. That is. So I'm going to read revelation 1311 this time, which says, I saw another beast coming up out of this, out of the earth this time, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon. Who was this power gal? SPEAKER B Well, it's arising out of the earth, as you've said there. And the first beast arose out of the sea. And the Bible tells us it gives us the codes. And that's a populated area, according to revelation 1715. So this second beast comes out from a spas populated region. Now, at that time in earth's history, when that deadly wound was inflicted on the papacy in 1798, there is one going down, but there is one arising. And as you had just read there, this one that you saw coming up, right, coming up out of the earth, it means it's arising like a silent seed growing. It's springing up like a new young country, like a young lamb, as it's depicted there. Now, the countries that were coming were to, I guess, to be nations at that time. There was Australia, New Zealand, the USA. But this one is going to rise to worldwide prominence. SPEAKER A And that's very important, isn't it, in that, I mean, you don't see Australia ruling the world or New Zealand, but America anyhow. Sorry, go on, Gayl. SPEAKER B Yes, so, clearly. So we have as. And it's interesting, in 1798, when General Berthier did take the pope prisoner, it was also in that year that France recognised the USA as a nation. SPEAKER A Isn't that interesting? SPEAKER B It is very interesting. SPEAKER A Plus, they'd stated their point that they were nations prior to that. That's so interesting. They did that. Okay, so talk some more to us, if you could, about this power. John, this description of the land beast there in chapter 13, verse eleven, the other beast. Can you give us more information on that? Explain that some more for us? SPEAKER C Well, when you think about the history that's happening in the world now, we find that there was a time when America was. It was like a lamb. Everybody loves lambs. I mean, you see them playing and going happily on, but that two horned lamb changes and speaks with the power of the devil, the dragon and of the dragon. And this is where we are living in a world where we are seeing very significant change, where from toleration to intolerance. And we can expect to see that in our day. SPEAKER A Okay, so this power, America, we've identified with America, will be the enforcer for the mark of the beast. That's what this scripture is saying to us right here. SPEAKER C The issue is coming back to revelation 1412. Here they have to keep the commandments of God and they have the faith, the testimony of Jesus Christ. SPEAKER A Okay, thank you, John. One last point here, Gayl. If we could just do it very quickly. What will happen to those faithful, obedient believers in Christ at this time when the pressure comes on? Just a few seconds. Bet. SPEAKER B Well, Christ is returning. He's coming back. Our creator, our king, our saviour, our redeemer, coming back to deliver his faithful people. Okay. SPEAKER A And that's the good news, isn't it? So the good news is, yes, it'll be a tough time for the people of God right at the end, but the faithful are going to be at peace because Jesus will come. So thank you for that. Thank you, Gayl. And thank you, John. Really appreciate your input today. The powers that will be arraigned against God's people at the end of time will be worldwide. And that's going to demand a faith, folks, that will not clinch, no matter what pressures are brought to bear. We develop that kind of faith on a daily basis now as we remain faithful in things large and things small, faithful to Jesus no matter what. That's what we've got to do. Well, we're glad you joined us today on let God speak. You can view this programme again as well as download teacher's notes on our website, 3abnaustralia.org.au. You can email us if you would prefer. We look forward to seeing you next time. God bless. SPEAKER B You have been listening to let God speak, a production of 3ABN Australia television. To catch up on past programmes, please visit 3abnaustralia.org.au. Call us in Australia on 02 4973 3456. Or email [email protected]. we'd love to hear from you.